Things I hate About Heisei Riders

[Igadevil]

You have without a doubt the most thoughtful insight into the inner-workings of a Kamen Rider series though. For someone like myself, a more casual fan, I see forumulas being repeated in the classic shows and new formulas being created and repeated in newer series'. I guess my question is why expect a classic formula to always be carried over? That makes every new series that premiers that much less creative.

I especially take issue with the animal motif complaint, about the Riders not being "bug based." Where in the name "Kamen/Masked Rider" does it say anything about insects? I think that's a pretty copout complaint for not liking a show like Ryuuki or Hibiki. What I see is people not wanting to give shows a chance because their perception of what is "normal" has been shaken up.

The motif thing, for lack of a better phrase, never really bugged me. In part because when you've seen some of the stuff Kamen Rider was going to look like, everything we've actually gotten looks pretty good by comparison (see the original Super-1 designs if you want to appreciate just how good he really looks!) And I really can't say I find most of the new Rider designs to be that out-of-place since there's pre-Kuuga art that are show early signs of 'em (Ryuki's grill-eyes pop up a lot.) There's almost always some precedent to these things. It's also worth pointing out that they were experimenting even in the early days; everybody knows about Amazon, but early on X-Rider was going to be a snail at one point (and if anyone thinks snails are insects, I got a bridge to sell you.) The different animals of Ryuki was actually one of the things I really liked.

I dunno. I think I said it before that everybody has an idea of what they want Kamen Rider to be. And then there's what it actually is. And it's about finding the balance and trying to enjoy it for what it is, or something. If that makes any sense. :sweat:

 

[MrMonk]

The motif thing, for lack of a better phrase, never really bugged me. In part because when you've seen some of the stuff Kamen Rider was going to look like, everything we've actually gotten looks pretty good by comparison (see the original Super-1 designs if you want to appreciate just how good he really looks!) And I really can't say I find most of the new Rider designs to be that out-of-place since there's pre-Kuuga art that are show early signs of 'em (Ryuki's grill-eyes pop up a lot.) There's almost always some precedent to these things. It's also worth pointing out that they were experimenting even in the early days; everybody knows about Amazon, but early on X-Rider was going to be a snail at one point (and if anyone thinks snails are insects, I got a bridge to sell you.) The different animals of Ryuki was actually one of the things I really liked.

I also note that the original designs tend to be more... scary (for lack of a better word - organic maybe?) and some of that gets lost in the transition from drawing to real suit.

 

[MattComix]

That's kind of funny, because Amazon is my personal favorite Masked Rider (even if in name only). And he's not even an insect, much less a cyborg! (He's a sort-of mutant, like Inazuman.)

Amazon is not one of my fav's out of the Showa Riders. But I respect his place in history and you can't have em there without him.

Out of the attempts at a monsterous/organic type Rider Gills is the one I liked the most visually plus I dug the character. I think what I liked is that the design is so well-balanced between the Rider elements and the monsterous ones which works for me moreso than Shin who to me is just a monster. I mean I realize maybe that's the point but still.

I don't mind a non-insect motif, but what I do mind is seeing beefy Metal Heroes under a different name. (This sort of started with Agito, who had a much beefier costume.) I'm more used to the slimmer, sleeker Spidey-like Showa Riders. For me, simpler is better.

To me the insect motif is not only just something I happen to like but I just think it's a necessary part of Rider's visual identity. A sort of iconic characteristic that distinguishes a Kamen Rider from just being another one 3 billion other henshin hero guys running around.

I will say in a lot of ways I see your point on this one and I've certainally talked at length about my own disdain for very gaudy and bulky Bandai quota Rider designs. At the same time though to me Kuuga is sleek. Agito before his last two forms is sleek. G3 is bulky but in a way that works and works for that concept and character while still being Rider. Gills is sleek before they stuck him with a alt. form that made him look like a demonic Christmas tree. Faiz is sleek. I guess the point I'm making is that the Heisei Rider shows can do sleek when they give a damn about something other than making another shinny thing for Bandai. Or when they're *allowed* to do something more than just another shinny thing for Bandai.

The problem I've always had with the Heisei Riders is the same problem I've had with newer Super Sentai; It's just plain convoluted, and there's nothing straightforward about it. Too many Riders to sell toys, when they could've saved them for their own series. Just like Super Sentai, Toei runs it into the ground.

I'm open to some variation but I more or less agree.

It's a combination of that and the overuse of the Rider vs. Rider thing. It becoming so much more about who can beat up who, who's "badass". I mean I really don't give a **** if these guys can beat each other up. Not to say that I can't enjoy *some* of that Rider vs. Rider conflict or the dramatic potential of it. To a point. But it's like with hero vs. hero in American comics. It's become an endless "my dad can beat up your dad". Oh ,can Batman beat up Superman. **** THAT! They're both heroes. They're both cool! Let the action come from their character interaction, their heroics and the battle against the real threat. I don't need my favorite superhero to be able to beat up your favorite superhero to feel good about the fact I like that superhero.

See, I HATE newer Toei Superhero shows for a reason. Toei has become so cynical. Just as bad as, or maybe worse than Toho's been with Godzilla lately. It just cannot be my concern.

*sigh* I can't go on.

I'll tell you what; as a consequence, I'll stop ranting about these shows like some jaded old fogey, and just move on. Arguing over personal taste is agreeably pointless. Besides, some really good friends here are fans of the Heisei Rider Series, and we can respectfully agree to disagree. If it's not my concern, I shouldn't even talk about it (much less think about it).

I understand why people get frustrated at negativity and it's a fair enough point. "Don't like it don't watch it" well, duh. Fair enough and when I've decided nothing about a show works for me I don't.

But at the same time I don't think there should be some sort of moratorium on being able to express that you don't enjoy the current direction of or certain aspect of a current direction of something that you used to really enjoy. Or even to be able to say that you've noticed this thing or that thing has been a trend in these shows lately and it's kinda dumb and annoying.

I don't think it should be you either happily except whatever shinny thing Bandai is feeding you as the epitome of "badass" or you are forbidden to comment. You basically stated what you didn't like about them and that was topic of the thread. It's not like you ran into a "Den-O is the most beautiful thing of sweetness ever!" thread and declared anybody who likes the show is a moron.

 

[Nana]

I appreciate how you're cool about your dislike for Den-O unlike the idiots who try to put me down for liking it.

 

[MrMonk]

Out of the attempts at a monsterous/organic type Rider Gills is the one I liked the most visually plus I dug the character. I think what I liked is that the design is so well-balanced between the Rider elements and the monsterous ones which works for me moreso than Shin who to me is just a monster. I mean I realize maybe that's the point but still.

I prefer Another Agito to Gills. Far creepier design that does more for me.

To me the insect motif is not only just something I happen to like but I just think it's a necessary part of Rider's visual identity. A sort of iconic characteristic that distinguishes a Kamen Rider from just being another one 3 billion other henshin hero guys running around.

But I think that's something that we get hung up on needlessly. I think Hibiki gives some idea where Ishinomori would've gone, and it's as far from the Kamen Rider look as you can get. Much like Tomino's Turn A was atypical of Gundam series.

I will say in a lot of ways I see your point on this one and I've certainally talked at length about my own disdain for very gaudy and bulky Bandai quota Rider designs. At the same time though to me Kuuga is sleek. Agito before his last two forms is sleek. G3 is bulky but in a way that works and works for that concept and character while still being Rider. Gills is sleek before they stuck him with a alt. form that made him look like a demonic Christmas tree. Faiz is sleek. I guess the point I'm making is that the Heisei Rider shows can do sleek when they give a damn about something other than making another shinny thing for Bandai. Or when they're *allowed* to do something more than just another shinny thing for Bandai.

Kabuto is bar-none my favorite design. Very sleek, very simple. Followed closely by Faiz, and then Kuuga Ultimate.

It's a combination of that and the overuse of the Rider vs. Rider thing. It becoming so much more about who can beat up who, who's "badass". I mean I really don't give a **** if these guys can beat each other up. Not to say that I can't enjoy *some* of that Rider vs. Rider conflict or the dramatic potential of it. To a point. But it's like with hero vs. hero in American comics. It's become an endless "my dad can beat up your dad". Oh ,can Batman beat up Superman. **** THAT! They're both heroes. They're both cool! Let the action come from their character interaction, their heroics and the battle against the real threat. I don't need my favorite superhero to be able to beat up your favorite superhero to feel good about the fact I like that superhero.

The only shows in which you've gotten no Rider vs Rider are Kuuga and Den-O. Outside of Den-O, seemingly having multiple Riders means they'll probably come into conflict at some point. Otherwise, the Riders will usually start or end up on opposing viewpoints.

 

[ryuuseipro]

Amazon is not one of my fav's out of the Showa Riders. But I respect his place in history and you can't have em there without him.

Out of the attempts at a monsterous/organic type Rider Gills is the one I liked the most visually plus I dug the character. I think what I liked is that the design is so well-balanced between the Rider elements and the monsterous ones which works for me moreso than Shin who to me is just a monster. I mean I realize maybe that's the point but still.

To me the insect motif is not only just something I happen to like but I just think it's a necessary part of Rider's visual identity. A sort of iconic characteristic that distinguishes a Kamen Rider from just being another one 3 billion other henshin hero guys running around.

I will say in a lot of ways I see your point on this one and I've certainally talked at length about my own disdain for very gaudy and bulky Bandai quota Rider designs. At the same time though to me Kuuga is sleek. Agito before his last two forms is sleek. G3 is bulky but in a way that works and works for that concept and character while still being Rider. Gills is sleek before they stuck him with a alt. form that made him look like a demonic Christmas tree. Faiz is sleek. I guess the point I'm making is that the Heisei Rider shows can do sleek when they give a damn about something other than making another shinny thing for Bandai. Or when they're *allowed* to do something more than just another shinny thing for Bandai.

I'm open to some variation but I more or less agree.

It's a combination of that and the overuse of the Rider vs. Rider thing. It becoming so much more about who can beat up who, who's "badass". I mean I really don't give a **** if these guys can beat each other up. Not to say that I can't enjoy *some* of that Rider vs. Rider conflict or the dramatic potential of it. To a point. But it's like with hero vs. hero in American comics. It's become an endless "my dad can beat up your dad". Oh ,can Batman beat up Superman. **** THAT! They're both heroes. They're both cool! Let the action come from their character interaction, their heroics and the battle against the real threat. I don't need my favorite superhero to be able to beat up your favorite superhero to feel good about the fact I like that superhero.

See, I understand why people get frustrated at negativity and it's a fair enough point. "Don't like it don't watch it" well, duh. Fair enough and when I've decided nothing about a show works for me I don't.

But at the same time I don't think there should be some sort of moratorium on being able to express that you don't enjoy the current direction of or certain aspect of a current direction of something that you used to really enjoy. Or even to be able to say that you've noticed this thing or that thing has been a trend in these shows lately and it's kinda dumb and annoying.

I don't think it should be you either happily except whatever shinny thing Bandai is feeding you as the epitome of "badass" or you are forbidden to comment. You basically stated what you didn't like about them and that was topic of the thread. It's not like ran into a "Den-O is the most beautiful thing of sweetness ever!" thread and declared anybody who likes the show is a moron.

:laugh: Can't hurt to pour out my heart and soul once more.

The things I didn't like about Kuuga and Agito was that most of the episodes were very slow-paced, and had a more soap-opera feel, and I rather zoned out. I did understand that this was when Toei started gearing the shows partly for adults (especially the more grown-up Rider fans). But then, you start to have more focus on those hot boys (for girls to drool over), their pompous gestures, and those freakin' Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh cards that set in!!! Ugh. I got sick after two episodes of Ryuuki (which I also thought was derivative of Mirrorman), and I could not get into the other shows beyond seeing pics and several clips. This was not the Masked Rider I grew up with.

Godzilla will always be Godzilla, no matter how his design varies (except for the American Zilla), the newer Ultramen are still like the Ultramen of yesteryear, and as convoluted as it is now, even Super Sentai is Super Sentai (except for the fetal teen idols underneath, who wear multicolored pajamas to look "cute"). But Masked Rider? Masked Rider died, and the Metal Heroes took his place (and wear ill-fitting bug-eyes and antennae to drive the point home). I thought the Riders from Black to J were everything I pictured how Masked Rider would look in modern times (the only design I wasn't exactly too fond of was Black RX, IMHO). Slim, sleek, flexible. He's Japan's answer to Spider-Man! (And the really funny thing is that the Heisei Rider shows are a lot like the "Ultimate" Spider-Man, only imagine Spidey wearing heavy-duty armor. And I thought giving him a race car and giant transforming robot was wrong!)

But on the designs, I thought Kuuga had an okay design. He reminded me somewhat of Masked Rider Stronger, only glossy. I did think that the color-changing ability was derivative of the Heisei Ultramen, but it looks better now. Agito was basically a beefier version of Kuuga (sort of like Black RX; I always preferred Black over the big blocky Black RX), but again, it's just okay (even though his other color forms were waaaay too over-the-top for me!). But what I did like about Agito was the diversity: Agito himself was the standard Rider, G3 was the Riderman-type, and Gils was the "creature" Rider, like Amazon and Shin! I especially loved Another Agito, who was the closest of the bunch to the classic Riders, IMHO.

The only other Riders that had interesting designs were Hibiki, Kabuto, and Kiva. I'm not even going to go into the other multiple Riders on the show (too many for me, and I just can't keep up with them!), but the others are pretty dull, ugly, sometimes even incredibly laughable. Especially Den-O and his chicken leg/bra mask! I nicknamed him either "Masked Rider Chickenlegs" or "Masked Rider Hooters." And then you have Decade, who I nickname "Masked Rider Liberace," because he's pink, and has piano keys on his mask! The design was so wrong on many levels. (Damon Foster once joked about the Saban version of Black RX, as he should've been called "Masked Rider Pink RX," because of his squeaky voice!)

Oh, and me-oh-my, I forgot to mention the "First" Masked Riders! I actually like their designs a lot, even though I really didn't like their movies. They should've been a lot better. (Toei has gotten increasingly cynical, and I sensed it when I heard about the production fiasco over the 2004 Devilman film, where the producer fired a lot of the initial crew, including master suitmaker/makeup artist Shin'ichi Wakasa!)

Also, like I said before, it would be great if the Masked Rider Series took a break, like Godzilla and Ultraman have done from time to time. It'll give Toei/Bandai a little more time to come up with something fresh for the character, rather than eternally milk it out like Super Sentai and do the umpteenth rehash of Ryuuki. Sadly, that's what they're doing now, and anything that Toei/Bandai has total control of has all but become an out-of-control freight train that just wouldn't stop. I jumped safely off that train years ago, and have moved on.

But this post did ask for "Things I hate About Heisei Riders," and I got it off my chest, I hope.

Peace,

 

[Bolt]

That's kind of.... wrong. Your complaint about the ladyboy actors and gimmicky, commercially-oriented props is applicable to Kamen Rider, but not to any other Toku series...? You can feel however you want, but using something like "the suits are too much like Metal Heroes" as a reason for not liking new Kamen Rider shows is pretty weak.

 

[Creator]

I appreciate how you're cool about your dislike for Den-O unlike the idiots who try to put me down for liking it.

Same here, people put me for down for hating Kiva. But I will stop here.

 

[JettoJaguar]

You can feel however you want, but using something like "the suits are too much like Metal Heroes" as a reason for not liking new Kamen Rider shows is pretty weak.

I dont understand. We must have a strong reason for not liking a show? how come nobody say this kind of things in the "things i like 'bout heisei kamen rider" thread? nobody tell you "your reason for liking this series is weak", a reason is a reason. If he doesnt like that series, and he has a reason, leave him alone!

As for me, I just dont know why most of the heisei riders need some artifact they put in their belts to transform, cards, phones, zecters...for me thats silly. It was very hard for me to accept the fact that faiz riders do henshin with a phone, but I managed to be ok with it, since it makes more sense than a zecter coming out of nowhere. i never really liked the card thing, thats why I never watched ryuki or blade complete.

I like the design of the suits in kuuga agito and faiz and some riders in kabuto, but the rest...i dont know, for me, they're ugly, blade being the ugliest.

Faiz is one of my favourite series, but theres just this one thing i never liked. The rider kick... with that red light, faiz appearing at the back of the orphenoc and a small explosion... that effect of the monster turning to dust looks really bad.

Hibiki is a great series, I really enjoyed it, but I dont feel like it is a kamen rider series at all... just a henshin hero series.

Kabuto was very nice at the start, but the catchphrase idea was boring, allways the same. I liked kabuto gatack and zabee, but the rest of the riders were just a bunch of fools. sasword design was horrible, with that toy-like sword, i hate the drake character, his "make up" was supposed to be funny? and that couple of sad riders, the hoppers, were just pointless, they didnt even look like hoppers. dark kabuto was cool, but hyper kabuto looks terrible, with that ugly sword...

den-o and kiva...i think i just watched the first episode of both...not the kind of series i like. I dont like trains and giant purple dragons in my kamen rider series.

 

[x1xBladex1x]

People like what they like. & Dislike what they don't like. Doesn't matter if it's over a little thing or a big thing as long as they actually watched the show to know if it is good or not. The show isn't all about rider designs, they could be ugly but still be a good show. IMO, den-o rider designs weren't that great, but I thought the show as okay (well first half anyways), so you can't judge things just based on looks without watching for yourself to develop a full opinion, you may end up liking stuff you think looks crappy. But if you watch something & don't like it, that is your business.

Nothing to fight over really. >>

But if you list reasons for not liking a whole era & those reasons don't apply to the whole era, then basically that is an idiotic judgement. Or if you list reasons for not liking a show that aren't even applied to that show, then something is wrong there. But if you watch the whole show & hate it just because there is a person or something you hate, then oh well your business & nothing to fight over cause arguing won't change opinions anyway.