Something for future superhero taisen films

[Toku Prime]

Is it worth pointing out that the big hit of Marvel phase two has been Guardians of the Galaxy, which is by far the most stand alone Marvel film for quite a while? (yes, I know there are meant to be some references here and there, though the people I know who rave about it the most are neither comic book fans nor have they seen all the other Marvel films, but instead just enjoyed it on its' own merits)

Re-occurring villains are not a bad thing. Just ask any James Bond fans. That franchise loves its' shadowy organisations - SMERSH, SPECTRE, Quantum etc. The question is are they right for Rider? If you're 8 and only started watching with Wizard, would you care that a bad guy in a new movie is somehow releated to one who was in Double? Bear in mind that there were reports of kids coming out of the first Taisen film asking who that pink guy called Decade was. More importantly, does that make you want to buy more toys? The Hibiki screwjob made it very clear that selling toys is more important than telling a story, and it's been Rider's focus since then.

Toei have long held the attitude that tokusatsu shows are ephemeral - that kids watch for a couple of years then move onto something else and forget all about that show. Unlike Ultraman, AFAIK Rider doesn't get re-run constantly so that newer fans can catch up on older series, and we've all heard about how prohibitively expensive DVD boxsets are in Japan. Little kids won't be catching up on previous shows the same way we do. You could argue that the recent retro trend started by Decade and Gokaiger shows a change of attitude, but I'm not yet sure they think much of it beyond "this is good for getting kids to buy lots of collectables" (especially as the episodes of Gokaiger that got the lowest ratings were tribute episodes for older shows). Either way, I get the impression that Rider series are designed to work as stand alone shows first, with the continuity bolted on afterwards. That means it's always going to be low priority, which IMO means Rider is unlikely to make a re-occurring organisation more significant than it currently does with Shocker etc.

 

[kamsasdn13213231]

You know after reading all your messages i think maybe its best that the villains’ in kamen rider should have a mixture of both showa and heisei elements with them getting back to their ‘take over the world’ plot but with a bit of heisei twist. That will probably happen in a future KR milestone series.
And also create some original villains for the superhero taisen and movie war movies instead of remaking the old which is as you say ‘out of content’

Though i wish foundation X should return to a superhero taisen movie resolving shins loose plots as a hint that the foundation and foundation X are one and the same.

Also my anime crossover idea of kamen rider (ichigo and nigo) and the gorangers will help unite the two franchises as canon since they are both created by the same man shotaro ishinomori.

 

[kuroihikari]

Toei have long held the attitude that tokusatsu shows are ephemeral - that kids watch for a couple of years then move onto something else and forget all about that show. Unlike Ultraman, AFAIK Rider doesn't get re-run constantly so that newer fans can catch up on older series, and we've all heard about how prohibitively expensive DVD boxsets are in Japan. Little kids won't be catching up on previous shows the same way we do. You could argue that the recent retro trend started by Decade and Gokaiger shows a change of attitude, but I'm not yet sure they think much of it beyond "this is good for getting kids to buy lots of collectables" (especially as the episodes of Gokaiger that got the lowest ratings were tribute episodes for older shows). Either way, I get the impression that Rider series are designed to work as stand alone shows first, with the continuity bolted on afterwards. That means it's always going to be low priority, which IMO means Rider is unlikely to make a re-occurring organisation more significant than it currently does with Shocker etc.

Yeah, that's what I think too. I feel that for the execs, the best idea of a tie-up film is to see who can beat who. If I were a kid who was a Rider fan I'd probably really want to watch a movie where we can see which Rider defeats which, no holds-barred, screw the story. Unfortunately the Rider films have failed to even do that. Just leaving us with theme fights and whatnot.

 

[NeonZ]

That sounds terribly condescending to fans of Kamen Rider, if you mean to imply that the only reason people would stick with it is a continuity.

What is condescending is imagining that people will be attached to completely unrelated shows just due to a shared brand. It helps with initial visibility, but that's it.

I don't think you quite understand the fact that no, it wasn't the continuity that actually forms the significance or, heaven help me, "identity".
It was the simple matter of fact that Kamen Rider V3, the hero of the previous show, appeared and meets Kamen Rider X, not the handwaving associated with it.

But it is. V3 wasn't some random character dropped in for a special episode, it was established from much earlier in the series that it was all the same world, and then they even throw in V3 not only during the special episode all about the past Riders, but also during X's power up episode and the final arc. There wasn't this attitude that V3's presence was a crossover gimmick that had to be separated from other elements of the show.

Nowadays, we get something like Wizard's two final episodes that had nothing to do with the rest of the series. The fact that they had to move the crossover to that point, to avoid it from having any influence in Wizard's main story, just shows how differently they're treated.

Of course, back in the Showa era, there was this idea that multiple heroes reduced the value of the titular hero, which is why the number of actual crossovers is low and some shows didn't even have them (like Super-1, where they just let the show lose its timeslot and afterwards get canceled, in spite of throwing crossovers to save Skyrider just one year before that - Also, even though they had Tani from Skyrider as a supporting character, he didn't even mention anything about the previous series aside from calling Super-1 by "Kamen Rider", and might as well have been a new character).

Going back to the Avengers comparison, I don't see how you can deny that the model worked. There's no way that a standalone Avengers movie would have been the biggest super hero movie ever otherwise. Even in Japan, although it wasn't the biggest ever, it was much bigger than any of the standalone Marvel Studios movies, something that Toei just isn't able to replicate with their own crossovers (even though Toei's standalone movies beat quite a few of Marvel's there), where we've seen the opposite in fact at least once (with SHTZ, where throwing smaller series like Gavan and several Sentai to just Wizard and some cameos for the Rider side just resulted in a movie with a smaller box office than even Wizard's standalone movie).

No, the arguement of re-using Foundation X is completely based on whether or not one likes Foundation X. Otherwise, this debate won't exist in the first place.

But that's not my focus at all. I'm bringing up Foundation X because it has been the only attempt at continuous world building so far in the recent years. If there were something else, I'd mention it too. It's not about the organization itself, but its role.

The show is not improved by thinking by an added weight of extra mental gymnastic over how to fit a villain's plot into a rigid and quite draconian master narrative, if that is what you are suggesting by "world-building". Especially over something that has nothing interesting to offer beyond nicking the end of Stronger.

Except in most cases they're actually worse for it. Wiseman's random sci-fi phantoms out of nowhere, people not finding the existence of monsters, or armored transformations odd at all in the beginning of Gaim... All those elements would only be helped by a stronger world building.

Foundation X's mostly passive attitude also works well for that role exactly because they wouldn't need to be Great Leader. They wouldn't need to be the reason or cause behind other villains action even if they had connections to some of them. There wouldn't be any draconian constraint to the plots like you imply.

Is it worth pointing out that the big hit of Marvel phase two has been Guardians of the Galaxy, which is by far the most stand alone Marvel film for quite a while? (yes, I know there are meant to be some references here and there, but I don't read the comics and I've missed a bunch of the other Marvel films anyway so I've no idea what they were and that film had to stand on it's own merits)

Well, aside from some minor elements, Guardians did have Thanos, which was directly leading from Avengers.

The question is are they right for Rider? If you're 8 and only started watching with Wizard, would you care that a bad guy in a new movie is somehow releated to one who was in Double? Bear in mind that there were reports of kids coming out of the first Taisen film asking who that pink guy called Decade was.

That's why I was saying that the attempt at world building is basically dead now. A child back in Wizard wouldn't have needed to watch W to know about Foundation X, even Fourze's movies would be enough. If they had appeared during Wizard too, once again they wouldn't need to even go back to Fourze.

The Hibiki screwjob made it very clear that selling toys is more important than telling a story, and it's been Rider's focus since then.

Hibiki's rating average was as low as Blade's at the time of the staff change (the lowest up to that point, and a big drop from Faiz in a single year). And then there were the location shots going overbudget. It was succeeding nowhere, the problem wasn't only toys.

You could argue that the recent retro trend started by Decade and Gokaiger shows a change of attitude, but I'm not yet sure they think much of it beyond "this is good for getting kids to buy lots of collectables"

This would only help that side too though. By strengthening the connection between the shows and their heroes you'd also make that past hero merchandising more relevant to the kids.

(especially as the episodes of Gokaiger that got the lowest ratings were tribute episodes for older shows).

To be fair, that likely came just from people disliking the model of the homage episodes themselves. They had boosts for the Magiranger and Dekaranger episodes, which have some of Gokaiger's biggest numbers. It was after those two that the homage episodes performed seemingly randomly, following the weekly floating of the ratings, often with lower ratings than the previous week like you say there. Besides, this also ties into what I've been saying. The interest in the crossover gimmick itself, without world building alongside it, seems to be limited and have diminishing returns. But, when those crossovers are made relevant, you can create a self sustaining loop.

Though i wish foundation X should return to a superhero taisen movie resolving shins loose plots as a hint that the foundation and foundation X are one and the same.

I'll be really surprised if one day Shin actually gets a relevant role in these crossovers movies... Even J only seems to get scenes because "giant".

 

[PowerPhantom245]

Here's my two cents: Hire a better WRITER and DIRECTOR.
Plain and simple.

 

[CannibalS]

What is condescending is imagining that people will be attached to completely unrelated shows just due to a shared brand. It helps with initial visibility, but that's it.

... If you seriously think the only thing that makes "unrelated shows" related is because of an in-universe continuity and maintain that is the only thing people would care about, we have nothing to talk about. Other than you really fundamentally do not understand storytelling.

 

[Ryuutaros]

Here's my two cents: Hire a better WRITER and DIRECTOR.
Plain and simple.

The new director is great. They haven't changed the writers yet.

 

[NeonZ]

... If you seriously think the only thing that makes "unrelated shows" related is because of an in-universe continuity and maintain that is the only thing people would care about, we have nothing to talk about. Other than you really fundamentally do not understand storytelling.

Good then, because I never said anything like that. Saying that people care about continuity isn't the same as saying that people only care about continuity at all. The Rider franchise has had decreasing ratings and box office for a few years now, and in spite of the increasingly large focus on toys, hasn't been able to reach its peak there again either. That's a fact. It's obvious that the current format has its limitations, and what I'm talking about wouldn't really destroy this format at all, just complement it.

 

[Painted_Outlaw]

If I were a kid who was a Rider fan I'd probably really want to watch a movie where we can see which Rider defeats which, no holds-barred, screw the story.

If you were a Rider fan though, wouldn't you think it's odd that Riders like Amazon and Fourze were fighting other Riders, though? When it's strictly in their characters that they'd rather befriend everyone than get into senseless violence (e.g. the SHT flicks).

 

[CannibalS]

Good then, because I never said anything like that. Saying that people care about continuity isn't the same as saying that people only care about continuity at all. The Rider franchise has had decreasing ratings and box office for a few years now, and in spite of the increasingly large focus on toys, hasn't been able to reach its peak there again either. That's a fact. It's obvious that the current format has its limitations, and what I'm talking about wouldn't really destroy this format at all, just complement it.

Which I will again point out, is not something that bringing a continuity would fix, because the problem goes way deeper than mere worldbuilding but simply the general lack of any real creative vision behind new Rider shows.