2012/2013 Kamen Rider - Kamen Rider Wizard... CONFIRMED.

[LaZerwolfX]

Hasn't that already happened though to a large extent? We only get evil Riders in movies nowadays, and even there they're usually either directly stated not be Kamen Riders by the script (Core) or have some kind of excuse (like Poseidon being mind controlled). Kamen Rider in the current shows seems to mostly mean hero again and people are surprised when someone evil calls themsevels a Kamen Rider, while in Ryuuki it was just an empty name.

it wasn't an empty name at all, it was just treated more realistically. Just because someone is granted amazing powers and abilities doesn't mean they are automatically a hero, they are just going to become super powered versions of themselves. and most, as ryuki clearly demonstrates, if anything will be more likely to give into their darker impulses

That's true.



Almost none of the Showa riders were "human", though; they were mostly cyborgs.

they were humans capable of sentient thought that still had their emotions and minds intact, they just had robo implants and ****. so they're still human where it counts.

Just because Toei says so; he doesn't fit the *Tomoko Nozama definition of what a Rider is*.
Available at bookstores near you, 2083 NC

umm toei's kinda the head honcho on this, if they say so its pretty much fact. also nozamas definition isn't the be all end all and is obviously the definition of an ideal kamen rider, of course she's not going to include "oh yeah and some riders are evil and like to kill people" that wouldn't fit the tone they're going for

Rebuttal: In the Ryuki TV Special, there's an ending where Shinji uses the Knight deck and he's still the same person.
The deck itself is meaningless; if say a hobo had picked up the Ouja deck and Asakura had picked up say, the Femme deck; we'd have a psychopathic swan Rider and a homeless probably fun-to-watch snake man.

thats not a rebuttal, thats exactly my point. by having an advent deck and subsequently; rider belt one is immediately that rider. So lets say hypothetically i get the verde deck, that makes me kamen rider verde, and i am now welcome to do anything i wish with these powers. done. Faiz is the same way, and in that series the rider gears were meant to be used by bad guys, which hypothetically would have made them all evil riders

 

[Wing Saber]

During the 70's & 80's, being called a Kamen Rider was more than just a designation, it was a badge of honor. The 2010's returned it back to it's roots, despite dropping the cyborg concept. Which is why any evil Rider would be denounced for calling himself a Kamen Rider, like what happen to Eternal & Core. However Shotaro accepted Katsumi as one, when he learn what kind of man he was once was before he became a Never.

While I like Ryuki, the one that still gets to me was that the Riders fought each other for a wish, which goes against everything Kamen Rider stood for. However it show the realism that just because someone is given a great power doesn't mean he'll automatically use it for good. Especially since he now feel that he can do whatever he want without any responsibility or consequences.

 

[Painted_Outlaw]

umm toei's kinda the head honcho on this, if they say so its pretty much fact. also nozamas definition isn't the be all end all and is obviously the definition of an ideal kamen rider, of course she's not going to include "oh yeah and some riders are evil and like to kill people" that wouldn't fit the tone they're going for

I was mostly being sarcastic on that.

by having an advent deck and subsequently; rider belt one is immediately that rider. So lets say hypothetically i get the verde deck, that makes me kamen rider verde, and i am now welcome to do anything i wish with these powers. done.

Okay, you're Verde now. Is your Contract Monster gonna be a chameleon just because that's what TV Special!Verde used? Are you gonna be an evil businessman because that's what TV Special!Verde did? You can choose how you wanna play the Rider war like how Shinji was convincing others that it was a pile of garbage.

But wai, that was your point? I couldn't tell since it was contradicting this thing you were saying before:

for instance if Shinji/Ryuki had gotten the Ouja deck instead you would be making the exact same argument about "that bastard Ryuki who just fought for the sake of fighting".

Nobody would be bashing Shinji for that because it's likely that it wouldn't have happened. It's not like the deck would've brainwashed him or anything; he still would've been the nice heroic guy we watched in the show.

 

[Hell Kaiser Andy]

What was meant in it with W bringing back the name. For the past couple of Kamen Rider series it was just a term that held no specific meaning.

During W it returned as the name of a Hero. They could do an Asakura take on the concept;

Let's say person X gains the powers of Rider Y or a variant. X doesn't want to use the powers as a hero like Y. Y who feels the name Kamen Rider holds importance wants to change the ways of X. Making him understand the meaning of the name.

Like Terui started out not being a true Kamen Rider.

In general. Go the Terui route with a Asakura like guy. Personally I'd love to see it pulled off right.

 

[Black Fang]

it wasn't an empty name at all, it was just treated more realistically. Just because someone is granted amazing powers and abilities doesn't mean they are automatically a hero, they are just going to become super powered versions of themselves. and most, as ryuki clearly demonstrates, if anything will be more likely to give into their darker impulses

Except before the name "Kamen Rider" was given by the characters to other characters that expressed heroic qualities. It wasn't simply a name they were stuck with.

You can make an argument that characters like Shinji and Tezuka were the ones who gave the name "Kamen Rider" in Ryuki actual meaning, and those like Toujou and Kagawa were in their minds living up to that ideal. But I kind of side now with those who say anyone who wasn't Ryuki, Raia, or Knight probably should have had other names, and Shinji creates the name "Kamen Rider". As for the other pre-W shows, characters who have no virtues whatsoever could have been called something else too.

Clearly Toei only smacks the name "Rider" onto everything because they think it will sell better. At least with post-Decade shows there's a bit more rhyme and reason to it within the stories themselves.

 

[LaZerwolfX]

But wai, that was your point? I couldn't tell since it was contradicting this thing you were saying before:
Nobody would be bashing Shinji for that because it's likely that it wouldn't have happened. It's not like the deck would've brainwashed him or anything; he still would've been the nice heroic guy we watched in the show.

You're not reading it right. Im saying that if Shinji had gotten the Ouja deck, he still would have been a good guy, so in that scenario Shinji/Kamen Rider Ouja would be a good guy. and "Asakura/Ryuki" would be getting complained about. What I'm saying is that by obtaining one of the decks, you would be a kamen rider, you can be any type of rider you want.

Its a lot like any other job for instance a Police Officer is meant to be a person with a good sense of justice, with a desire to help people, protect the peace, and all that. But we all know there are plenty bad/crooked cops in the world. Do they besmirch the title of being an officer of the law, yes. But they're still a police officer. The same principle applies to being a Kamen Rider.

Is a Kamen Rider meant to be a just, pure hearted, good individual who fights for justice?
Yes.

Have there been times when bad people have gotten some Kamen Rider powers of their own, and used those for selfish/evil purposes?
Yes.

 

[Khaiden]

Its never been "wasted" Kamen Rider is a much broader term than just "a (sometimes) tragic hero who fights for justice" thats way too one dimensional. The term has evolved and become redefined. If you wanna get down to brass tacks the only "real" qualifications to be a Kamen Rider is to be a human (i realize there are exceptions to this such as hajime but just go with it) who transforms and probably has a motorcycle. Every series tweaks the definition of what a Kamen Rider "is" as well as what a Kamen Rider "can be."

It has to be a hero. It has to be someone good.

This has allowed the concept to grow and become more than just the exact same kinda character/set-up/premise every time. Also why the hell is anyone arguing that Ouja/Ohja isn't a rider, obviously he's a rider.

Well as ProtonsZero said, in the Ryuki world itself he is, everyone is. But that's not the point here, we are speaking in broader terms, the whole franchise, not just Ryuki.

The way i see it, the belts, suits, weapons, etc are all The powers of a Kamen Rider, they are neither for good or for evil upon their creation. They are just "Kamen Rider powers" they have the potential to be used for good or for evil, its just a matter of who gets their hands on the power, for instance if Shinji/Ryuki had gotten the Ouja deck instead you would be making the exact same argument about "that bastard Ryuki who just fought for the sake of fighting". it was the guy inside who was making the choice to be evil, but he was still using the powers of a Kamen Rider to do so. Chinomanako isn't a kamen rider, thats a given.

It's not the system that gives you the name, it's not the henshin device. The name is earned by the person, this is what I was talking about, just because someone is using the Faiz belt doesn't mean they're Kamen Rider, they're just using the system.
It's the usage of such powers for justice that makes someone earn the title of Kamen Rider.

Ichimonji could have become an evil cyborg brainwashed by Shocker and he wouldn't be a Kamen Rider.
Somebody else could have been given the surgery from Black Satan and we would see the Stronger suit as a villain, but not a Kamen Rider.
Nobuhiko could have escaped instead of Kotaro, and there would be no Kamen Rider Black.
It's the special person that gets to use those powers and use them for good that makes them a Kamen Rider.

If we went by your logic, then Hongo shouldn't be called a Kamen Rider at all. He should just be called ''Cyborg''. Because he's using cyborg powers and not ''Kamen Rider'' powers.

Of course, problems arise when a company just decides to name their systems, ''Kamen Rider'' systems.

I get what you're trying to say, but really the title of Kamen Rider isn't that simple anymore, and personally i'd HATE to see it go back to being that black and white again. its so limiting not to mention it doesn't make a lick of sense, plus Villian riders can be a really fun sometimes.

It wouldn't make the villains any less interesting if they weren't called Kamen Riders.

they were humans capable of sentient thought that still had their emotions and minds intact, they just had robo implants and ****. so they're still human where it counts.

Their whole body was modified, it didn't function like anyone else's. They were completely different. It's accentuated when they're in Rider form and they say ''This is my true form''.

 

[Burkion]

More to the point, let's look towards the Showa Era some more shall we?

Ichimonji's original introduction in the manga was that he was part of the evil Shocker Riders, note not Kamen Riders, and helped to kill Hongo-but suffered a head injury that made him remember who he was. Even though up until that point he was a monster, he remembered who he was and fought back for justice.

Or let's go over to Amazon.

Amazon has no henshin device, and he is in no fashion a cyborg-he is a monster. Out and out, plain and simple, just like Shin. His monstrous form is refined by his amulet, but beyond that... He didn't even have a motorcycle for the first four episodes of his series, so he wasn't even a Rider.

Yet he was, because he was a hero and he fought for justice. Thus, he earned the title Kamen Rider.

We have the actual Shocker Riders, who are just that. They're not Evil Kamen Riders, or Shocker's Kamen Riders-they're Shocker Riders. They look the same as the Riders, have the same powers, almost the exact same origins...the difference being, they didn't escape. THey don't use their powers for good. They're evil.

Thus, they are not true Kamen Riders.


Shadow Moon? Could have easily been Kamen Rider Shadow, combatting the evil Gorgom and trying to free his brother, turned into the twisted cyborg Black Sun. He wasn't, and he wasn't.

And, hell, a subtle one.

Kamen Rider ZO and DORAS.

ZO is an organic step up in human evolution, re purposed to protect the son of the man who altered him. He could have left the kid to rot, instead he decided to step up and fight for good.

On the flip side, DORAS, who is just the next logical step from ZO, uses his powers for evil, and no one's ever considered HIM a Kamen Rider.


Kamen Rider means more than who you are or what powers you have.

Kamen Rider means that you're an ally of justice, that you will fight evil until your dying breath, that you will never rest-not even death can hold a Kamen Rider from bringing justice to evildoers.


You don't have to be a nice person, you don't have to be human, you don't have to be a cyborg. You have to be a hero, to some one at the very least.

 

[LaZerwolfX]

It has to be a hero. It has to be someone good.

No, it obviously doesn't, this isn't even up for debate, we already have riders who don't apply to that, that ARE kamen riders, whether you like it or not, thats how it is, cut and dry.

It wouldn't make the villains any less interesting if they weren't called Kamen Riders.

So are you seriously trying to tell me that the idea of having a rider get the Kamen Rider treatment (having someone use your own powers/abilities/cyborg enhancements against you. Whether working with the main bad guys or not) Is not in the least bit intriguing, like you really don't want to see that? They've done multiple times in sentai, so why not here? And sure while the evil rangers eventually turn good, with rider they obviously decided to explore what it would be like if this character didn't turn back. I'd say that idea is interesting, and while yeah they could just give them the Shadow Moon treatment, I would say that having someone evil also referring to themselves as a Kamen rider would be more interesting.

Ichimonji could have become an evil cyborg brainwashed by Shocker and he wouldn't be a Kamen Rider.
Somebody else could have been given the surgery from Black Satan and we would see the Stronger suit as a villain, but not a Kamen Rider.
Nobuhiko could have escaped instead of Kotaro, and there would be no Kamen Rider Black.
It's the special person that gets to use those powers and use them for good that makes them a Kamen Rider.

Your definition seems to be only shaped by showa era series, therefor your definition doesn't have any real way to make sense of hesei era riders unless they fit perfectly into your narrow definition, which plenty don't. The writers for the various hesei series have really broadened the definition of what a kamen rider can be and it has made for some wonderful stories. If you don't want to count certain characters as riders go ahead, but they're still riders and no amount of debating will change that. you're putting in a lot of effort just for the sake of being stubborn,it kinda seems like a waste.

let's look towards the Showa Era some more shall we?

You can't just use Showa for your definition, the Heisei era exists and its definitions of what a kamen rider can be are just as legitimate, if not more so due to theirs being more recent. The definition of kamen rider is different for many series. For some its just a name tag, for some its a legitimate career, for some its their destined path, for some its their chance to fight for justice, for some its their chance to achieve their desires, and some use it because they desire power. once again, that definition is dated and doesn't make space for the sheer variety of fun and interesting characters that all share the mantle of kamen rider.

 

[Aoi Kurenai]

And, hell, a subtle one.

Kamen Rider ZO and DORAS.

ZO is an organic step up in human evolution, re purposed to protect the son of the man who altered him. He could have left the kid to rot, instead he decided to step up and fight for good.

On the flip side, DORAS, who is just the next logical step from ZO, uses his powers for evil, and no one's ever considered HIM a Kamen Rider.

Though, something interesting to note, Amemiya designed Doras as what he thought an evil Kamen Rider would look like.