What is Tokusatsu: A Fact Based Definition

[Shynilyte]

I think you're just overestimating the importance of tradition here and trying to pretend that all the CGI and green screen suddenly "doesn't count" or something. Again, they're not afraid to use new techniques. Tradition is very, very far from the be-all-end-all you seem to think it is. You act as if just because someone said it's a reason, that means other reasons don't exist or something.

I don't think anyone here is saying that fake-looking inherently means bad, but bad is a valid use of the word "cheesy".

 

[Painted_Outlaw]

Modern techniques like greenscreen and CGI haven't replaced "traditional" sfx, but studios seem willing enough to use them if they work.

It would be really bad if every toku show became like what I've heard of the new Garo show where they've foregone suit actors all together and have just used CGI suits, though.

 

[MechaGolem]

Japanese crew comes to the US, they make a toku movie, movie airs in the US... Not a toku by your logic. I mean if the elitists want to keep toku as purely Japanese only that's fine, but I take great issue with how certain people are seemingly looking down on people that dare to call PR or other Toku(not made in Japan) as not toku. Captain power, other than not being made in Japan or having Japanese people in it, is most certainly toku. Sure that's my opinion, but then that is what this thread is.. Lots of opinions. I disagree with yours and others stances that toku has to be only Japanese, but I won't call that opinion asinine or outrageous.

You clearly don't understand what I or others, like Lynxara, have been arguing at all, and I can't feel that is our fault since after 8-pages I feel we have been abundantly clear.

To say that we are saying that in order for something to be Tokusatsu it must be shot in Japan is sucha gross over simplification as to boarder on misrepresentation. If Toei wanted to shoot an episode of Super Sentai outside Japan (which they've done) be it in NY and then it aired on US TV (as lots of Toku. shows have) that fact would not nullify it's status as a Japanese Tokusatsu production anymore than the fact that Marvel shot parts of their new Wolverine movie in Japan makes it a Japanese Tokusatsu production.

The issue at hand isn't one of geography but culture. Tokusatsu is a cultural art form. And the culture that it belongs to is Japanese culture. As a result it has certain cultural earmarks that are indicative of Japanese aesthetic culture, such as an emphasis on "presentationalism" over "realism" and a unique history dominated by figures like Eiji Tsuburaya and films like Godzilla - none of which plays a significant role in the cinematic culture of any other country except Japan.

That said, if you are still convinced that Captain Power should be considered Tokusatsu despite its lack of connection to anything related to Japanese culture then explain why. What is it about this one particular show that screams Tokusatsut to you? What are your parameters for defining Tokusatsu and why should we consider them? This is an open debate, defend yourself.

 

[MechaGolem]

I think you're just overestimating the importance of tradition here and trying to pretend that all the CGI and green screen suddenly "doesn't count" or something. Again, they're not afraid to use new techniques. Tradition is very, very far from the be-all-end-all you seem to think it is. You act as if just because someone said it's a reason, that means other reasons don't exist or something.

No not at all. I'm not trying to say that CGI is anathema to Tokusatsu or anything like that. However it's 2013, you look at SFX driven movies and shows from almost anywhere else in the world - be it America or Norway or Thailand - and you see this emphasis being placed on extensive photo-realistic CGI SFX. But not in Japan. Not in the UK either. Why? There has to be a reason. Probably not a singular reason, but a reason nonetheless. One of the main reaons I've been able to turn up is that the Japanese don't see the need or appeal of these kinds of SFX. It's not part of their tradition, part of their culture.

Interestingly I've heard similar reasons from some UK directors. In a Fangoria interview with Joe Cornish, when asked why he went with suitimation instead of CGI for the monsters in his movie ATTACK THE BLOCK (2011) the reason he gave was "We didn't need CGI when I was a kid in the 80s and we don't need it now."

I don't think anyone here is saying that fake-looking inherently means bad, but bad is a valid use of the word "cheesy".

That's fine. This thread is one big semantic debate, we don't need a second one inside it.

 

[Toku Prime]

However it's 2013, you look at SFX driven movies and shows from almost anywhere else in the world - be it America or Norway or Thailand - and you see this emphasis being placed on extensive photo-realistic CGI SFX. But not in Japan. Not in the UK either. Why? There has to be a reason.

Budget. To use a UK example, Red Dwarf used models for years, mainly because the BBC gave it a standard sitcom budget which it then had to try creating sci-fi sets, props, effects etc with. Then in series 8 (the last of it's initial run), they switched to mostly CGI. Why? Because they found a wunderkid CGI guy who did the effects for them really cheaply. While suitmation is a technique that has survived longer in Japan, that's simply down to economics. Suitmation took over from stop-motion because it was cheaper and quicker rather than because it was "better" (The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms looks and moves much more like a real creature than the stiff, ungainly Godzilla that appeared a year later). In the last year or so the price of CGI has crashed and now it's within the ability of many more TV shows around the world to use it regularly.

I'm a big fan of suitmation and modelmaking (if you ever need someone to gush about how awesome the model south pole base in 'Gorath' is, I'm your man :thumbs but they are techniques, not genres. The JJ Abrams Star Trek movies are not a different genre to the original series because the former used CGI and the latter used models.
It seems to me that the Japanese somehow have a very different perspective that they bring to their TV shows and films (and indeed possibly to all their art). I'm sure there are people on these forums much more familiar than I with Japanese culture, who could tell you what combination of differing social values, unique local mythology, and everything else that contributes to that. But it's there.

Horror fans have recognised this, and J Horror or Japanese horror seem to be gaining recognition as it's own sub-genre.
Animation fans have recognised this and have repurposed the word "anime" to label cartoons created through this perspective.
IMO, science fiction and fantasy created through this perspective is "tokusatsu". Even if Garo and KR and all the others swapped suits for CGI, as long as they retain that unique perspective, they would still be tokusatsu (whether they'd be better or worse is a completely different matter).

 

[KingRanger]

defend yourself.

I already have. I don't see toku as a cultural thing. There have been Toku directors that have worked on US based toku. There was toku out of Australia. There is toku out of China and other countries. But like I said, if it makes you happy to think toku must be Japanese only that's great. Myself and others would disagree. Neither group is right or wrong. However, putting down one groups opinion is very wrong.

 

[MechaGolem]

Budget. To use a UK example, Red Dwarf used models for years, mainly because the BBC gave it a standard sitcom budget which it then had to try creating sci-fi sets, props, effects etc with. Then in series 8 (the last of it's initial run), they switched to mostly CGI. Why? Because they found a wunderkid CGI guy who did the effects for them really cheaply. While suitmation is a technique that has survived longer in Japan, that's simply down to economics. Suitmation took over from stop-motion because it was cheaper and quicker rather than because it was "better" (The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms looks and moves much more like a real creature than the stiff, ungainly Godzilla that appeared a year later). In the last year or so the price of CGI has crashed and now it's within the ability of many more TV shows around the world to use it regularly.

I'm a big fan of suitmation and modelmaking (if you ever need someone to gush about how awesome the model south pole base in 'Gorath' is, I'm your man :thumbs but they are techniques, not genres. The JJ Abrams Star Trek movies are not a different genre to the original series because the former used CGI and the latter used models.

It seems to me that the Japanese somehow have a very different perspective that they bring to their TV shows and films (and indeed possibly to all their art). I'm sure there are people on these forums much more familiar than I with Japanese culture, who could tell you what combination of differing social values, unique local mythology, and everything else that contributes to that. But it's there.

Horror fans have recognised this, and J Horror or Japanese horror seem to be gaining recognition as it's own sub-genre.

Animation fans have recognised this and have repurposed the word "anime" to label cartoons created through this perspective.

IMO, science fiction and fantasy created through this perspective is "tokusatsu". Even if Garo and KR and all the others swapped suits for CGI, as long as they retain that unique perspective, they would still be tokusatsu (whether they'd be better or worse is a completely different matter).

Great post Toku Prime, I agree with everything you said there and I'll be happy to hear you gush about the miniature work in Gorath any day of the week.

And you are, of course, right about budgets being a factor. I was actually just re-reading Stuart Galbraith's excellent book Monsters Are Attacking Tokyo! the other day and there is a quote from Eiji Tsuburaya's son Akira where he says:

"Because of the Japanese film market, it [Godzilla '54] was done with a very low budget compared to American films. The budget limitations forced us to be inventive and imaginative to be effective, and I think that's really great. Japanese film makers can't afford to set a real building on fire, to do everything full-scale, so Japanese SFX are as much a budget-conscious art as a creative one." (p. 90)

So the comparatively low budgets on Japanese SFX productions have definitely influenced the style of Tokusatsu. It reminds me of the old adage that all great art is born out of constraint.

I already have. I don't see toku as a cultural thing. There have been Toku directors that have worked on US based toku. There was toku out of Australia. There is toku out of China and other countries. But like I said, if it makes you happy to think toku must be Japanese only that's great. Myself and others would disagree. Neither group is right or wrong. However, putting down one groups opinion is very wrong.

KingRanger, I'm not a big fan of Harlan Ellison but I think in this particular situation this quote of his is particularly apt:

"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that’s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing. It’s just bibble-babble. It’s like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks."

You can have your opinion about what you think Tokusatsu is, but without reason, without research, without logical argument it's meaningless and I don't have to respect it just because it's yours and you think you're entitled to it.

As always you're welcome to actually make an argument instead of just posturing. For example what do you mean when you say: "There have been Toku directors that have worked on US based toku. There was toku out of Australia. There is toku out of China and other countries"?

What are you referring to? Koichi Sakamoto coming over to direct and produce several seasons of Power Rangers, or the fact that Garo 3 director Makoto Yokoyama actually got his start working on Power Rangers? Australia. Thinking about Ultraman: Towards the Future here? China. Do you mean stuff like Armor Hero and Giant Saver, because that's already been addressed, or do you mean Japanese co-produced stuff like Super Inframan, Mighty Pekingman or Tsu Hung Wu? Seriously lets talk about this rather then you just hiding behind "Well that's my opinion" all the time.

 

[KingRanger]

You can have your opinion about what you think Tokusatsu is, but without reason, without research, without logical argument it's meaningless and I don't have to respect it just because it's yours and you think you're entitled to it.

Who said you had to respect it?

o·pin·ion
/əˈpinyən/
Noun
A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Just because you think you have some "factual" definition of what toku is, doesn't make you right. I don't have any delusions that what I think about toku is fact. I just know what I think.

I've talked about it, you just don't agree with what I believe, and that's great that's your choice. But you seem to take personal offense when people don't agree with your "factual" ideas of toku are. Honestly you are starting to get a bit offensive. A few of the things you said in your last post bordered on the dickish. If you want to keep telling people how wrong they are when they think PR is toku, do what makes you happy. I've my myself clear. I don't need to justify my personal beliefs to you no matter how much you tell me I do.

I mean think about it. By the logic you are using here, if I say I hate hamburger then I would need to have some facts to back up why I hate hamburger.

 

[Painted_Outlaw]

Animation fans have recognised this and have repurposed the word "anime" to label cartoons created through this perspective.

It gets kind of awkward though when someone refers to something like Rugrats or Family guy as "anime"; I know the term is short for "animation" but.. I dunno, seeing someone dressed like Chaz Finster (from Rugrats) at Anime Boston would be really odd.

 

[KingRanger]

It gets kind of awkward though when someone refers to something like Rugrats or Family guy as "anime"; I know the term is short for "animation" but.. I dunno, seeing someone dressed like Chaz Finster (from Rugrats) at Anime Boston would be really odd.

And yet it happens. Just like people dress up like MLP and other US toons at anime cons. I mean how many Jokers and such do you see at every con?