Spring Kamen Rider Movie - Kurata Returns!

[CannibalS]

I think you missed my point or I don't quite get what you're trying to say in relation to what you quoted me on.
My point was that Drive is getting all this development that should have clearly gone to Sango.
Drive gets all this support to turn from evil to good, even though it amounts to nothing since in the show, Drive is already good.
People who go watch this movie have probably already seen the show, so they already know Drive is inherently good.
Even if people haven't seen the show, it's a no brainer that Drive is a heroic Rider.
Sango on the other hand is this mysterious character who we know nothing about.
And it seems his development as a character comes from suit only replacement VA Riders and an altered timeline Drive who's kinda evil.
So the focus of the movie is all wrong.

No, the focus is precisely on the right place, because it interrogates Drive's validity as a Rider while using Rider #3 as an example of what he basically represents in contrast with the original Kamen Riders: A servant of authority following up on the image of rebels. Rider 3 wouldn't retroactively exist if Drive didn't happen, to put it simply.

And I'll have you know that G3 is actually the first Rider to be definitely tied to the police
There's also Accel, but I'm pretty sure you meant main Rider, not secondary ones.

Except G3 wasn't the main Rider, and authority overall was either put under scrutiny (police in Agito, of which Team G3 had to always navigate through) or straight-up called out as smothering and undesirable (Overlord of Darkness and the Lords), and Accel was a cowboy cop.

 

[145zzz]

No, the focus is precisely on the right place, because it interrogates Drive's validity as a Rider while using Rider #3 as an example of what he basically represents in contrast with the original Kamen Riders: A servant of authority following up on the image of rebels. Rider 3 wouldn't retroactively exist if Drive didn't happen, to put it simply.

I agree with your point about how the focus of the movie is basically questioning Drive's validity as a Rider.
However, if that was the case, they set it up poorly since Drive being evil was due to some altered timeline stuff, not Drive's subconscious darker half taking over.
So it becomes less potent when you realize that Drive is evil because of circumstances out of his hands.
At the same time, shouldn't this movie focus more on the validity of Sango instead of Drive?
Sango is being billed as this mysterious Rider and is heavily featured in the promos and trailers instead of Drive.
Drive has his own show to slowly validate him as a Rider and Chase already serves as this contrast to him.
On the other hand Sango gets this movie, only to have Drive steal the spotlight for a poorly done storyline they'll probably be used later in Drive's show.
That was my main point from before but muddled in my rambling.

I also don't quite get what you mean about Sango not existing if not for Drive.
I'm assuming you mean how he's portrayed as in the movie since his manga counterpart is radically different and had a bike instead.

 

[Khaiden]

No, the focus is precisely on the right place, because it interrogates Drive's validity as a Rider while using Rider #3 as an example of what he basically represents in contrast with the original Kamen Riders: A servant of authority following up on the image of rebels. Rider 3 wouldn't retroactively exist if Drive didn't happen, to put it simply.

I have to strongly disagree about this point. It's true that the fact he has a car is due to Drive's influence, but everything else comes from the Double Riders, an Ishinomori "Lost Story" and Shocker. Those three elements have already been shown on the big screen in some form in the past Spring films (Big Machine, Badan, Let's Go's entire story that's being rehashed here). I fully believe Rider 3 would have shown up anyway, just with a bike (or some other vehicle, perhaps a Liner, a RevolGarry-like machine, etc.) instead of a car.

And I have to slightly agree with both sides of the argument about why Drive is being questioned as a Rider (the movie hasn't come out yet so it's all pure speculation based on what we've seen):

1. They are NOT questioning him because he drives a car. Just like they did NOT question Gaim because he had a giant orange drop on his head.

2. Drive is already somebody that follows authority, and with the authority now changing to Shocker in this movie, there is finally reason to confront him about just taking orders, without thinking about the children's future, justice, humanity, etc. This is what Minami Kotaro seems to tell him.

That being said, I too, hate the fact that using the Drive as the character that's confronting the returning cast rather than Rider 3 is a waste, and again I point out two reasons:

1. As has been said, Drive being "evil" and fighting other Riders has Shirakura's stain all over it. It's forced, tiresome and we're all sick of it. No matter how hard I squeeze my head to find a good reasoning (which I did), it still sucks. Rider 3 is already a character that is doing that so why the hell are they ALSO shoehorning the current HERO? Surely they could have found an evil Rider to return and do so? Surely they could have another villain (like General Black) to fill that role? That's what happened last year: the main villains that were out to execute the Riders were Fifteen and Yamarashiiroid. I don't even think there needs to be another villain in this role, Rider 3, having defeated the Double Riders already seems more than capable as the sole person that will say "I will defeat all Riders."

2. Drive, being the current hero, SHOULD interact with his seniors as much as possible, learning life lessons from them. But, yet again, they want them to try to kill each other to do so. We just can't have nice things, not without enduring unnecessary fights at first.

 

[cobabooy]

This just came up to me: V3 has Ichigou's skills and Nigou's strength, so what kind of power does Sangou have?

 

[CannibalS]

I agree with your point about how the focus of the movie is basically questioning Drive's validity as a Rider.
However, if that was the case, they set it up poorly since Drive being evil was due to some altered timeline stuff, not Drive's subconscious darker half taking over.
So it becomes less potent when you realize that Drive is evil because of circumstances out of his hands.
At the same time, shouldn't this movie focus more on the validity of Sango instead of Drive?
Sango is being billed as this mysterious Rider and is heavily featured in the promos and trailers instead of Drive.
Drive has his own show to slowly validate him as a Rider and Chase already serves as this contrast to him.
On the other hand Sango gets this movie, only to have Drive steal the spotlight for a poorly done storyline they'll probably be used later in Drive's show.
That was my main point from before but muddled in my rambling.

I also don't quite get what you mean about Sango not existing if not for Drive.
I'm assuming you mean how he's portrayed as in the movie since his manga counterpart is radically different and had a bike instead.

Except Drive being "evil" because of circumstances out of his hands is utterly true to many problems with police authority in real life.

Here's the thing in easier terms: http://cannibal-sarracenian.tumblr.com/post/108643583696/care-to-explain-what-you-think-taisen-gp-is

I have to strongly disagree about this point. It's true that the fact he has a car is due to Drive's influence, but everything else comes from the Double Riders, an Ishinomori "Lost Story" and Shocker. Those three elements have already been shown on the big screen in some form in the past Spring films (Big Machine, Badan, Let's Go's entire story that's being rehashed here). I fully believe Rider 3 would have shown up anyway, just with a bike (or some other vehicle, perhaps a Liner, a RevolGarry-like machine, etc.) instead of a car.

Except he showed up in the context of current Rider being Drive and written with the intention of showing up within the context of Drive. This doesn't disprove my point at all.

And I have to slightly agree with both sides of the argument about why Drive is being questioned as a Rider (the movie hasn't come out yet so it's all pure speculation based on what we've seen):

1. They are NOT questioning him because he drives a car. Just like they did NOT question Gaim because he had a giant orange drop on his head.

2. Drive is already somebody that follows authority, and with the authority now changing to Shocker in this movie, there is finally reason to confront him about just taking orders, without thinking about the children's future, justice, humanity, etc. This is what Minami Kotaro seems to tell him.

You are missing my point here and being overtly literal. The fact that he is authority yet takes the Rider title is exactly why his role as a Rider is being put to question, because in the the narrative logic of many Kamen Riders, especially Showa, authority and dominating power IS the bad guy, which would entail that he is now part of Shocker in this movie, since Shocker is a representation of that. The car thing is only symbolic of these radical changes. Read the link I've posted above.

That being said, I too, hate the fact that using the Drive as the character that's confronting the returning cast rather than Rider 3 is a waste, and again I point out two reasons:

1. As has been said, Drive being "evil" and fighting other Riders has Shirakura's stain all over it. It's forced, tiresome and we're all sick of it. No matter how hard I squeeze my head to find a good reasoning (which I did), it still sucks. Rider 3 is already a character that is doing that so why the hell are they ALSO shoehorning the current HERO? Surely they could have found an evil Rider to return and do so? Surely they could have another villain (like General Black) to fill that role? That's what happened last year: the main villains that were out to execute the Riders were Fifteen and Yamarashiiroid. I don't even think there needs to be another villain in this role, Rider 3, having defeated the Double Riders already seems more than capable as the sole person that will say "I will defeat all Riders."

2. Drive, being the current hero, SHOULD interact with his seniors as much as possible, learning life lessons from them. But, yet again, they want them to try to kill each other to do so. We just can't have nice things, not without enduring unnecessary fights at first.

I do not see why you would rather keep hang ups upon a writer you don't know about and purposefully ignore story and thematic in favour of what you described which honestly sounds way less interesting. And as for your second point I already pointed out why that simply does not work at all.

 

[Ryuutaros]

You know...shouldn't Accel (and G3-X) be part of Drive's team in "arresting" the other Riders? Since you know they are part of the police.

Man, this could've been a massive Secondary Rider team up movie!

 

[cobabooy]

You know...shouldn't Accel (and G3-X) be part of Drive's team in "arresting" the other Riders? Since you know they are part of the police.

Man, this could've been a massive Secondary Rider team up movie!

That's exactly what I thought. They could also have shown SmartBrain, BOARD, ZECT, Museum, Kougami Foundation and Yggdrasil as cooperations that work for Shocker, too, that would have been great

 

[Khaiden]

Except he showed up in the context of current Rider being Drive and written with the intention of showing up within the context of Drive. This doesn't disprove my point at all.

It doesn't disprove mine either. My point was that had this been another Rider with a different motif, Sango would have shown up in that Rider's context. When they were planning Drive, they didn't say: "We need to make a Rider that looks fitting to fight alongside Rider 3 in next year's spring movie."

You are missing my point here and being overtly literal. The fact that he is authority yet takes the Rider title is exactly why his role as a Rider is being put to question, because in the the narrative logic of many Kamen Riders, especially Showa, authority and dominating power IS the bad guy, which would entail that he is now part of Shocker in this movie, since Shocker is a representation of that. The car thing is only symbolic of these radical changes. Read the link I've posted above.

I did read the link. Great essay! I'll be sure to continually check the blog. But I still have to disagree.

Riders are not anti-authoritarian as long as said authorities are doing the right thing. Hongo and Ichimonji opposed an authority (Shocker) and teamed up with a representative of another authority (FBI Agent Taki), V3 later did the same when he took Interpol's help against Destron. The G3 Team in Agito started as part of the police following orders but later defied them, not because they thought authority was bad, but because their superiors were now taking the wrong decisions (in their view).

SPIRITS is also a good example where both a bad ruling force and a good authoritative power are present. In Rider 2's introductory chapter, he is openly opposing the governments in the country he's in. Why? Because they're causing a war that is taking too many civilian casualties.
All throughout this manga series, Interpol, the FBI and the eponymous SPIRITS division created by these 2 governmental organizations aid the Riders. Of course, they gladly take the help. Why oppose them? They have the same goal as they do: to protect people and fight evil.

I highly doubt that Drive being a policeman is the reason they chose to introduce chains and the Shocker symbol into Rider 3's design. Rider 2 from THE FIRST also had a Shocker symbol and kept it later despite turning against Shocker; unlike the original counterpart, who at first had the Shocker symbol and later got Hongo to replace it with the TRC logo (though this was shown in manga and not in the TV series, so it might not be considered canon). Did you notice the TriCyclone has the TRC logo in it too? Despite Sango's design being the opposite of the Double Riders, his vehicle is just a car version of their motorcycles.
Those shackles, Shocker logo, yellow scarf, etc. are in the design to show what it would be like if someone like the Double Riders did NOT oppose authority, yes, but the car doesn't have that contradiction; furthermore, this had already been done before with the Shocker Riders (both in the original series and THE NEXT).
That's why I don't think Drive is the reason why we have the Anti-Kamen Rider 3.

I do not see why you would rather keep hang ups upon a writer you don't know about and purposefully ignore story and thematic in favour of what you described which honestly sounds way less interesting. And as for your second point I already pointed out why that simply does not work at all.

It's what fans want and expect. Perhaps ONCE or maybe TWICE it was good to "keep it interesting" by having them fight each other, but doing it every.single.time is why it is seen as forced and unnecessary, and the reasoning keeps getting worse every time. The number one problem with all of this that can't be overlooked is that all this infighting is showing many Riders (perhaps EVERYONE) completely out-of-character.

 

[CannibalS]

It doesn't disprove mine either. My point was that had this been another Rider with a different motif, Sango would have shown up in that Rider's context. When they were planning Drive, they didn't say: "We need to make a Rider that looks fitting to fight alongside Rider 3 in next year's spring movie."


I did read the link. Great essay! I'll be sure to continually check the blog. But I still have to disagree.

Riders are not anti-authoritarian as long as said authorities are doing the right thing. Hongo and Ichimonji opposed an authority (Shocker) and teamed up with a representative of another authority (FBI Agent Taki), V3 later did the same when he took Interpol's help against Destron.

That's where it gets into pedantic details, that doesn't inherently disprove the dynamic, especially given how Taki and V3's Not-Taki is still the individual who fights alongside Riders and FBI/Interpol is very rarely focused upon and barely depicted as any kind of Science Patrol-esque good counterpart to Shocker or Destron. And then in other Riders since, police barely have any role at all.
Plus the comic pages I just showed, which literally spelled out the entire thematic there.

Its like how Doctor Who is. The Doctor hasn't stopped being a mercurial cosmic renegade because he worked with UNIT (though there was the whole thing with Third Doctor and the UNIT years, but everything before and after that period has the Doctor firmly be a space anarchist fighting against opponents bigger than he is)

The G3 Team in Agito started as part of the police following orders but later defied them, not because they thought authority was bad, but because their superiors were now taking the wrong decisions (in their view).

Again, pedantic, and that is still going against their authority, because the authority is flawed which is reiterated countless times with characters like Hojou and various other at best unpleasant and stuffy police department.

I highly doubt that Drive being a policeman is the reason they chose to introduce chains and the Shocker symbol into Rider 3's design. Rider 2 from THE FIRST also had a Shocker symbol and kept it later despite turning against Shocker; unlike the original counterpart, who at first had the Shocker symbol and later got Hongo to replace it with the TRC logo (though this was shown in manga and not in the TV series, so it might not be considered canon). Did you notice the TriCyclone has the TRC logo in it too? Despite Sango's design being the opposite of the Double Riders, his vehicle is just a car version of their motorcycles.
Those shackles, Shocker logo, yellow scarf, etc. are in the design to show what it would be like if someone like the Double Riders did NOT oppose authority, yes, but the car doesn't have that contradiction; furthermore, this had already been done before with the Shocker Riders (both in the original series and THE NEXT).
That's why I don't think Drive is the reason why we have the Anti-Kamen Rider 3.

You didn't really disprove anything I said here so much as just pointed out the aspects of Rider 3's design, by which you only pointed out they reference Shocker Riders basically. Which yes, anyone can see it, but that really doesn't have to do with why the character is written to be the way he is and what he presents in the story.

Also, you should drop fandom's notion of "canon" when it comes to talking about Kamen Rider. Kamen Rider does not subscribe to the western comic book-y understanding of it.

It's what fans want and expect. Perhaps ONCE or maybe TWICE it was good to "keep it interesting" by having them fight each other, but doing it every.single.time is why it is seen as forced and unnecessary, and the reasoning keeps getting worse every time. The number one problem with all of this that can't be overlooked is that all this infighting is showing many Riders (perhaps EVERYONE) completely out-of-character

By whose authority are they supposedly out-of-character?

 

[Khaiden]

That's where it gets into pedantic details, that doesn't inherently disprove the dynamic, especially given how Taki and V3's Not-Taki is still the individual who fights alongside Riders and FBI/Interpol is very rarely focused upon and barely depicted as any kind of Science Patrol-esque good counterpart to Shocker or Destron. And then in other Riders since, police barely have any role at all.
Plus the comic pages I just showed, which literally spelled out the entire thematic there.

Its like how Doctor Who is. The Doctor hasn't stopped being a mercurial cosmic renegade because he worked with UNIT (though there was the whole thing with Third Doctor and the UNIT years, but everything before and after that period has the Doctor firmly be a space anarchist fighting against opponents bigger than he is)

I like to believe details are important. Taki is not the only one in the original series. Every once in a while they'd get other kinds of agents (most notably the short-lived Anti Shocker Alliance from the Shocker Riders arc) to help them. Taki might have been detached from the FBI, operating on his own terms, but he never did anything that oppenly opposed them and followed his orders of returning to America at the end despite the heartbreak of leaving his best friends behind.

Again, pedantic, and that is still going against their authority, because the authority is flawed which is reiterated countless times with characters like Hojou and various other at best unpleasant and stuffy police department.

And just like the G3 team, Hojo opposed his superiors when they acted against his views.

You didn't really disprove anything I said here so much as just pointed out the aspects of Rider 3's design, by which you only pointed out they reference Shocker Riders basically. Which yes, anyone can see it, but that really doesn't have to do with why the character is written to be the way he is and what he presents in the story.

Pardon me if I misunderstood, but at the conclusion of your essay you stated that the main manifestations of this whole argument were seen in Sango's design.

Also, you should drop fandom's notion of "canon" when it comes to talking about Kamen Rider. Kamen Rider does not subscribe to the western comic book-y understanding of it.

By "canon" I mean whatever Toei, or whichever writer/producer/etc with the right power says happened. In my book, if you insert the tiniest drop of "fandom's notion" it becomes fanon. "Word of God" as they say.

By whose authority are they supposedly out-of-character?

By the authority of their original portrayal (i.e. the producers/writers that came up with their idea and wrote them in that way) and their actors (or absence of).