So what is it that do you guys like about Faiz?

[Painted_Outlaw]

The not being able to touch anything without turning to it dust doesn't make a lot of sense.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxItH0I6xmQ"]YouTube - Everything you touch turns into Skittles[/ame]

Sorry, first thing I thought of. xP

 

[MattComix]

Sorry, first thing I thought of. xP

:laugh:, now I'm imagining Kitazaki with tragic Skittles power.

<Centipede Orphnoch> "I don't wanna taste the rainboooow! Eyyaaaaah!"

 

[Igadevil]

I don't mind that I watched it all the way through and I'm not saying that never enjoyed anything about it. I'm just frustrated that it could have easily been so much better than it was. It would not have taken a whole lot of extra thought and care to have made a stronger show with a satisfying resolution to it all. I really think Faiz basically suffers from the same Inoue BS The First and Next does. Faiz is kind of where Inoue really begins disappearing up himself.

Well I guess I really do like Faiz more than I thought! :laugh:

A couple things in response:

- I generally like all the main Riders because so long as each one is unique and brings something different, I can usually overlook a lot if the "well I wouldn't write him like that!" ideas I get. Characters such as Takumi, Tendo or Ryoutarou are not my ideal version of a Rider lead, but I appreciate the variety. With the newer guys, I do think there's a downside in not having them be able to interact with each other. We only get to see each one within the realm of their show, where the characters always react accordingly to them. I would like to see Tendou taken out of his element and put in a Rider show where people don't put up with his BS as easily, but that's not something I expect to see anytime soon.

- I liked Takumi being an Orphenoch because then at least the way the Faiz Gear worked kind of made sense: It's to be used by Orphenochs. I was actually less fond of how they handled Kaixa and Delta, where it seemed to be all over the place (I know the back story of the kids, but I wish they'd just all been Orphenochs instead of these kinda/sort/maybe/not really things.) I generally dislike multi-ID Riders, but that was a fault with how the Faiz Gear worked, rather than the Takumi being an Orphenoch revelation. Ideally, I would have had Takumi and Takumi alone be Faiz for the entire series, aside from maybe one time when the bad guys got ahold of it. That would be the one big clue as to what he really is.

- The interaction between Takumi and Kiba is another thing, but as a character on his own I liked Kiba. It might have been interesting had they never met as people, only as Faiz and Horse Orphenoch (i.e. enemies.)

- Kusaka is obnoxious, but I think that was the point. I look at him as an out-and-out villain in the series, even though he's arguably not evil, just bigoted and pretty fucked up. However the thing about Kusaka is that he never stops, he never just walks away, when there are a ton of times where he could have. He never thinks "maybe the other guy's right". He can rely on his tragic/messed up backstory for only so long, and then he's bringing it all on himself. He's long past the point of redemption so when he finally meets his demise at the end, I was pretty much expecting it. I don't think he's meant to be a very likable character, which is why it's interesting that people do like him. Now as far as making him a Rider, that's another mess I don't want to get into. Were it up to me though the only Kamen Rider in the show would be Faiz.

- Lucky Clover does descend into mediocrity (once they lose Mr. J, they basically spend the rest of the series trying to replace him and it never works.) However as ridiculously overpowered as he is, I like Kitazaki for the first few episodes. I think those utter psychopath characters never have much life in them beyond a couple episodes, unless they have an alternate characteristic they can fall back on beyond "crazy evil guy". I feel the same way about Asakura, to be honest. In general, I think Faiz needed to kill off some of its baddies sooner than it did.

- I actually don't even like the Orphenoch all that much! The color scheme is a big thing, I like my monsters colorful. I also don't like how obvious it is that they recycled suits (the Undead did too, but it's much better disguised.) I get that there's budgetary concerns, but come on now. Other shows got away with it. But some of the designs were really cool (Owl, Crocodile, Archy) and I did like the shadow thing idea, if not the realization. I'd have gone more low tech and just had their shadows be human-shaped all the time. The Orphenoch are just something I like more when I think about them now, as opposed to when they actually were on the show.

- I actually really liked that Smart Brain goes out of business at the end since they're just about my least-favorite villain group ever, so it felt oddly fitting. They're so terrible they don't get the dignity of going down in flames or after some spectacular battle. They just go out of business and are quickly forgotten. All that was missing was the door hitting Smart Lady on the way out. Yes it was a crappy end, but they kind of had it coming (why did no one ever think to just go to the dry cleaner's and take the belts that way? When did Rider hangouts gain magical plot forcefields anyway? Shocker practically had their own VIP entrance into the Tachibana Racing Club!)

Like I said, Faiz is probably my least-favorite series, but most of that is just apathy towards the series rather than "I hate it I hate it I hate it!" There's shows I like far more where the flaws bother me more. But I never got really into Faiz like I did the first three Heisei series or Blade. It was a precursor to how I felt during the Hibiki~Kiva run of shows: I liked them all okay, but they're really made for other people than me.

 

[Black Fang]

Plus, I really feel like his continued presence with Mari, Takumi, and Keitaro was so entirely dependent on the characters magically losing their spines and putting up with his constant garbage long passed the point where it really made any sense for them to do so.

That's actually one thing I thought was good in concept, if not in execution. Takumi is a streetwise drifter, and unlike Mari and Keitaro he isn't taken in by Kusaka's boasting. And that is what makes Kusaka start to hate him, because he can't manipulate him like he can others. I think they should have used this to expand a bit more on Takumi's past, and to have Takumi actually stand up to Kusaka in front of the others rather than just acting moody. A lot of the conflicts between characters in Faiz aren't necessarily bad, they're just written so.

- Kusaka is obnoxious, but I think that was the point. I look at him as an out-and-out villain in the series, even though he's arguably not evil, just bigoted and pretty fucked up.

I don't think you can say he's "bigoted", it's more he's obsessed with killing Orphenochs. And given his experience with them, it's not surprising why he would feel how he does. It's not like in Agito where people suddenly were given supernatural powers to evolve into something higher, but haven't yet learned their potential. We have Orphenochs deliberately planning world domination and other bad stuff a la X-Men. Not all of them were villains, sure, but most of them were a bad lot.

Speaking of Orphenoch evolution, exactly how the heck did it happen? Why did it happen? How does a "natural Orphenoch" get created? How and why could the King keep the race from dying?

 

[Smilodon]

And that is the mess of that is Faiz's ending.

I always thought they evolved in a way similar to their namesake. How Orpheus, in search for his dead love Eurydice, went down into the Underworld and bargained with Hades to bring her back, only to lose her again because he looked back. And Enoch, who was the only son of Adam to evade mortal death (Correct me on the Enoch part, I'm not religious).

So there were Orphenochs who created naturally, as in they died, and were resurrected. Why? They probably evolved because of Darwinism and the Survival of the fittest. Or maybe they evolved because they mutated when they died. They are natural Orphenochs.

Then there were the Orphenochs created as a result of another Orphenoch killing them. They're like Vampires.

Hanagata explained however, as the human body could not keep up with such abrupt and rapid evolution, and that Orphenochs would eventually die, depending on how often they became Orphenochs/used Rider Gear. The Orphenoch King, who seem to have come out of left field, was the perfect Orphenoch and could eliminate the flaw that plagued Orphenochs and give them infinite lifespans.

That's the explanation, but I think the King is a bunch of crap. I can understand someone like Murakami, Hanagata and Kitazaki having stronger forms than other Orphenoch, because each of their evolution is different. But having a perfect being? Does that make Teruo some kind of savior that came to liberate Orphenochs from the constructs of mortal life? That was just so random, especially since he's just a kid Keitaro and Kaito just rescued from a fire.

 

[Igadevil]

I don't think you can say he's "bigoted", it's more he's obsessed with killing Orphenochs.

I stand by it. He's obsessed with killing them all because he holds a deep-seated hatred of and prejudice towards the Orphenochs. He doesn't hold humans in particularly high regard either, seeing everybody as an obstacle between him and Mari, but his hatred of Orphenochs ran a lot deeper. Even before he knows the truth about Takumi, he holds him in contempt for his views on the Orphenochs.

Now, it can be argued that his hatred is somewhat justified, if you agree with his views or sympathize with his plight. Orphenochs did him wrong, there are a lot of bad ones out there, and I think the show does at least lean towards the idea that while being an Orphenoch does not make you inherently evil, it seldom leads to happiness. Kiba's life was basically ruined the moment he got in that car crash, and look where he ends up. Most Orphenoch featured on the show are at least killers if nothing else. So Kusaka may have a point, but I think a big part of his character is also that he's come to simply hate all Orphenochs for what they are, regardless of the details.

 

[MattComix]

- I liked Takumi being an Orphenoch because then at least the way the Faiz Gear worked kind of made sense: It's to be used by Orphenochs. I was actually less fond of how they handled Kaixa and Delta, where it seemed to be all over the place (I know the back story of the kids, but I wish they'd just all been Orphenochs instead of these kinda/sort/maybe/not really things.) I generally dislike multi-ID Riders, but that was a fault with how the Faiz Gear worked, rather than the Takumi being an Orphenoch revelation. Ideally, I would have had Takumi and Takumi alone be Faiz for the entire series, aside from maybe one time when the bad guys got ahold of it. That would be the one big clue as to what he really is.

Hot potato with the belts was especially tiresome. As for Takumi I agree on having him be Faiz for the entire series. I think rather than making him an Orphenoch though I wonder if instead they could have made him be the product of a human/Orphenoch union. He would have heightened sense and the belt would recognize his DNA but he would not actually be capable of transforming on his own. As a result, he's not quite human and not quite Orphenoch. So it is through becoming Faiz and protecting the lives of both that he finds identity and purpose.

- The interaction between Takumi and Kiba is another thing, but as a character on his own I liked Kiba. It might have been interesting had they never met as people, only as Faiz and Horse Orphenoch (i.e. enemies.)

I agree and what you said kind of plays into my idea about having Kiba's arc being an induction to the ranks of Lucky Clover. As Takumi learns the ropes of being a hero Kiba is being dragged further into the darkness of Smart Brain. The death of Mr. J could have marked the beginning of Kiba as an official member of the team.

- Kusaka is obnoxious, but I think that was the point. I look at him as an out-and-out villain in the series, even though he's arguably not evil, just bigoted and pretty fucked up. However the thing about Kusaka is that he never stops, he never just walks away, when there are a ton of times where he could have. He never thinks "maybe the other guy's right". He can rely on his tragic/messed up backstory for only so long, and then he's bringing it all on himself. He's long past the point of redemption so when he finally meets his demise at the end, I was pretty much expecting it. I don't think he's meant to be a very likable character, which is why it's interesting that people do like him. Now as far as making him a Rider, that's another mess I don't want to get into. Were it up to me though the only Kamen Rider in the show would be Faiz.

Getting back to you had said earlier about the show needing to kill off some of its badguys sooner, I think if that had been the case with Kusaka it would have been more tolerable. In PL he's established, does his dickhead schtick ("I'll be the real savior") and is dusted off by a deadlier dickhead.

The Orphenoch are just something I like more when I think about them now, as opposed to when they actually were on the show.

The Orphenoch are very undercooked as Rider monster ideas go but there is definitely something there.

A lot of the conflicts between characters in Faiz aren't necessarily bad, they're just written so.

That's about it in a nutshell. If the payoff for putting up with Kusaka had been Takumi knocking him off his own pedestal in full view of the supporting characters that might have made it all worth it. Maybe throw in an Exceed Charged mudhole stomping to make it that much sweeter.

Speaking of Orphenoch evolution, exactly how the heck did it happen? Why did it happen? How does a "natural Orphenoch" get created? How and why could the King keep the race from dying?

Evolution was just a dumb way to explain the Orphenochs existence. Again, I think the idea just needed a few more drafts before going live.

 

[Lynxara]

The Orphenoch are very undercooked as Rider monster ideas go but there is definitely something there.

Part of what I think makes the Orphenoch more appealing in retrospect is that while they aren't perfectly thought-out, they're a damned sight more interesting than a lot of the Orphenoch rehash factions that populated later, more derivative Rider shows. There's just more idea there.

Faiz is half-baked in a lot of ways, but in retrospect it had a lot of ideas that are startlingly original. History shows us that even in Ishinomori's day, bringing truly original ideas into Kamen Rider was often an uphill battle despite the fact that the original ideas often prove the most popular.

People like familiarity, but people also like to see new spins on familiar ideas. Faiz was definitely a memorable spin on Rider, even if it wasn't one entirely suited to my tastes as a viewer. It's the sort of thing where I am growing to respect it as a writer even though it's not my favorite as a fan.

 

[musashi03]

Yes, that's my take on the hot potato belts Faiz had, it's a unique take on being a Rider, since it is dependent on the gear itself rather than the person who uses it. It's a unique idea on its own and I appreciate it.

 

[m121akuma]

I think I agree with MattComix on just about every point he's made in the thread. I don't hate Faiz in the same way that I hate other shows, but the ending and some other aspects of it left a VERY sour taste in my mouth. Yuji's heel-turn wasn't really done all that well, and the lack of communication between characters was just frustrating without any sort of good payoff. Kusaka was just despicable, and although I LOVE irredeemable, love-to-hate-em bastards, the fact that he was still played off as a protagonist really bothered me. The fact that he was given a "hero's death" (by Yuji's hand, no less, who was a far better person than Kusaka ever could be) was just a slap in the face. There are quite a few parts of Faiz that I really liked. Takumi's a GREAT protag, managing to be completely different from anything before while remaining totally likeable. On the other end of the spectrum, up until his untimely end, Murakami is one of my favorite villains in the entire franchise. The dude listens to his own dramatic score on his stereo while sitting evilly at his desk in his enormous office. If that doesn't scream awesome, over-the-top, Lex-Luthornian bad guy, I don't know what does. I really like the suit designs, the Orphenochs, the belt voice, and the action as well. I just wish the writing were a lot better than it is.