I like Kamen Rider Kiva, But....

Black Fang · Oct 21, 2010

Japaneseseriesfan said:
I don't see how you guys like BlackFang's idea of the "ultimate Showdown" between Saga and Kiva.

It's not Black and Shadowmoon. Wataru was an orphan for chirstsakes. You want them to develop him into a character that goes so mad to the point that not having a family member didn't matter to him anymore!?

.... What are you talking about here? You're implying Kotaro didn't care about Nobuhiko anymore by the time the finale came around? Taiga's resolution was so rushed and illogical that it practically screams "last-minute rewrite". Everything was leading up to some sort of final confrontation determining the fate of the Fangires.

Japaneseseriesfan said:
I think the ending was ok. It could have been done SO MUCH better, but it WAS ok. It was ENOUGH. Wataru finally has a REAL family. He finally has someone to look up to that is actually alive other than his dead father.

Yes, characters that were a few episodes ago completely malevolent towards humans are now suddenly one big hunky-dorey family that wants to emulate Den-O as much as possible. Yes, that's totally acceptable :redface2:

Japaneseseriesfan said:
Then there's the whole Dark Kiva as a danger in the past. What I thought should have happened was this:

Otoya and Arms monsters obtains Kivat Bat II. The bat itself is also willing, but Otoya is not a Fangire. They go through a ritual to help him be able to become Dark Kiva.

As Dark Kiva, Otoya can't control the power. IXA fights him, but fails and is ultimately destroyed. The Arms monsters arrive and is somehow able to shut him down together, and it results into them taking his soul out of his body while his body is still rampaging. They perform one last ritual, which ends Dark Kiva's control over Otoya and he collapse. His soul isn't able to return to his body. So he wonders around as a soul in the last moments of his life, talking to a lot of people. Then he makes the Arms Monsters swear upon their souls to take care of his son. They agree. Otoya's soul disappears, but somehow, it ends up in the future, in his son's body as a side effect of the rituals he performed (there are consequences on the rituals). Otoya's soul goes to rest, somehow, in the time travel arc when Wataru is able to let go of his dad's spirit.

That's how I hoped Kiva would have been written.

We can argue on the details, but the gist of that I basically agree with.

But if Kiva absolutely had to have time travel for some convoluted reason, just keep it for the movie and make it all the more special. Don't try to transplant it in the show as well where it's not appropriate.

Japaneseseriesfan said:
You know, I think that it's a fact that most HJU members probably would have said the same thing as you because you all expect a lot from the franchise. And most of you are pretty pessimistic about A LOT of things coming from Toku.

I see, so a real fan expects only the bare minimum from a toku and accept every single thing that's given, no matter the quality. God forbid anyone would want to raise its quality.

NeonZ · Oct 21, 2010

Taiga's resolution was so rushed and illogical that it practically screams "last-minute rewrite". Everything was leading up to some sort of final confrontation determining the fate of the Fangires.

A Taiga who killed Queen would never get the Dark Kiva armor, and, in that situation, there wouldn't be an "epic duel", just Saga getting stomped by Emperor Kiva again. Kiva would need significant rewrites to lead to the ending you've mentioned.

Black Fang · Oct 21, 2010

I agree. I never liked how Taiga got the Dark Kiva gear, as it defeated the whole idea of a past Kiva and a present Kiva. "Gold" Kiva was Taiga's by birthright, but it went to Wataru instead. That's the only reason Taiga even uses the Saga gear.

Taiga and Wataru should have been a bit more evenly matched, regarding your point. But I think they might've still been stuck in the Kabuto/Den-O rut of "the hero must be a virtual god and always incapacitate his enemies!"

NeonZ · Oct 21, 2010

Black Fang said:
I agree. I never liked how Taiga got the Dark Kiva gear, as it defeated the whole idea of a past Kiva and a present Kiva. "Gold" Kiva was Taiga's by birthright, but it went to Wataru instead. That's the only reason Taiga even uses the Saga gear.

Taiga and Wataru should have been a bit more evenly matched, regarding your point. But I think they might've still been stuck in the Kabuto/Den-O rut of "the hero must be a virtual god and always incapacitate his enemies!"

But, if Kiva weren't significantly superior to Saga, why would it be an important treasure while the Saga gear pretty much a second grade replacement?

Actually, here's a idea: it could work if the Saga gear had been an artificial armor, like Ixa, a fake Kiva of sorts kept a secret from the Fangires. It'd give a good enough reason to despise it in spite of its power... But, it still would change the series significantly.

m121akuma · Oct 21, 2010

big_j_ny said:
But like I said, if you're feeling techy now........go the Faiz route. And believe me, when you watch Faiz.........YOU WILL SEE KIVA COMPARISONS IMMEDIATELY

To be fair, if you watch Agito, you'll see comparisons to both Faiz and Kiva. Inoue basically struck gold with Agito, and has been directly trying to recapture that ever since, each attempt being worse than the last.

Black Fang · Oct 21, 2010

NeonZ said:
But, if Kiva weren't significantly superior to Saga, why would it be an important treasure while the Saga gear pretty much a second grade replacement?

It's the principle of the thing: Kiva belongs to the King. Wataru is a bastard child, and half-human to boot. And because of Maya's actions Taiga was deprived of both his parents and forced to live under the distrustful Shima. So for him to bear a grudge against Wataru for receiving what is rightfully his is understandable, even though he does have Saga.

NeonZ said:
Actually, here's a idea: it could work if the Saga gear had been an artificial armor, like Ixa, a fake Kiva of sorts kept a secret from the Fangires. It'd give a good enough reason to despise it in spite of its power... But, it still would change the series significantly.

Frankly, Saga isn't even really needed. Taiga could have just used his Fangire form all along without throwing in a third Rider.

Oblivion · Oct 21, 2010

Lynxara said:
Time travel was pretty clearly the story theme that Inoue was most interested in exploring, though. On a writing level, there's nothing memorable about Kiva except the parallel story structure. You see a world evolve over time by telling the story of two different heroes in parallel. Time-travel becomes a basically logical story development if you look at things that way.

Logical enough. I had never looked at things that way before. But the time travel idea just felt sorta forced to me, perhaps it due to the way it was handled? The story didn't really do much to make me think "Time travel's needed." The The Wonderful Something Club is gonna be destroyed, IXA must travel back in time to stop this whole thing from happening! It felt sorta weak to me, didn't had any impact so to speak, else I'll remember.

I really liked the idea of parallel worlds actually. But having Otoya and Wataru teamup? I agree with Black Fang, maybe keep it for the movie, then it'll be a more special event to behold, I didn't even bother about the movie.

Kiva's horror stuff strikes me as clearly something the toy guys and producers came up with, probably before Inoue or any other writers were even on board with the show. Some writers will engage with the themes suggested by the toys, but others tend to wander off into telling stories they personally find more interesting. Inoue... well, he wanders off, more often than not.

Yeah, I just found out that the toys are the ones that are made first before the even the story after reading about W.

Did they even bothered to explain the origins of Saga and Taiga's one-shot cobra shadow-thingy powers?

Phanto5692 · Oct 24, 2010

For someone looking to get into Kamen Rider, would you recommend Kiva as a starter series?

Aoiblue · Oct 24, 2010

Kuuga and Agito really. Kiva is one you should watch done the road~

NeonZ · Oct 24, 2010

Oblivion said:
Did they even bothered to explain the origins of Saga and Taiga's one-shot cobra shadow-thingy powers?

Saga is a training armor for the prince. Revealed by outside material.

Taiga's snake powers are obviously just part of his Fangire powerset, although he never showed his actual Fangire form.

I like Kamen Rider Kiva, But....

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