Did you think Onodera was a good Godai replacement?

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
I like Onodera just because I have a crush on Ryouta Murai. As a character though, he wasn't that great :sweat:
 

NeonZ

Active Member
Do we know for a fact that Yuichi Nakamura was unavailable?

The 1st Cho Den-O movie was mostly about Yuuto, yet they only could get Yuichi into a single scene at the end, having him initially disappearing off screen in the beginning. So, the movie basically had no introductory scene for Deneb and his problem. I highly doubt that was an ideal situation.

I also remember a picture of Zeronos in some early Chou Den-O preview magazine article, yet he was never in the actual movie.

That's why I said that if you couldn't get the alumni for the show itself (and is it really so hard to bring back actors for only one or two episodes?) there is always the movie.

I think you need to consider not only Toei's probable cheapness regarding money, but also the series schedule. Those actors would need free time at the right moment of specific arcs in order to allow the recordings. The summer movie is recorded in a schedule similar to the show's, so it basically has the same problem. Then, there are also people who just wouldn't return in any situation...

You could have the show feature Tsukasa traveling the worlds, acting as the Rider of that world (Wouldn't that be a better endorsement of the Ganbaride game anyway? I thought Toei and Bandai love product placement, a Rider who is essentially RP-ing as other Riders would have been perfect), trying to fix things, and then in the movie team-up with the real nine Riders to fight the boss villain.

Ganbaride involves team battles. Decade going around mimicking other Riders by himself wouldn't really resemble it much. Decade teaming up with various other Riders is much closer.

Like I've said before, the tv series still would have had the same problem regarding lack of Riders. The summer movie aired two weeks before the finale at least, so the final battle never could have been there for simple schedule reasons.

Teaming up with the older Riders in the movie would have been nice, but, really, there was nothing stopping them from doing it even with the current set up.

Storywise, any previous Rider actor could easily have been inserted into All Riders (which featured 8 Heisei Riders who seemingly weren't the ones that Decade met in his journey), the tv finale (Yet again, 8 Heisei Riders who weren't the ones Decade met in his jorney, and Wataru and Kenzaki actually appeared out of suit and transformed) and The Last Story (Which yet again featured some Heisei Riders different from the ones Decade met in his journey - although it also featured the AU versions in the final battle)... So, it's not like the AU set up made it impossible to feature the original actors. It was possible, they just didn't do it for other reasons.

How? All you'd have to do is replace the AU Riders' roles in those stories with Tsukasa.

What? I was trying to say is that if you eliminated the AU Riders (and main Riders), you'd be left with Tsukasa and a bunch of minor secondary characters in the series.

Also, Tsukasa wouldn't be able to replace the AU Riders effectively all the time due to his own character too. You couldn't seriously make him go through 9 phases of character development in 18 episodes without making him just schizophrenic.

His development also would be limited due to his own lack of specific connections with each world. You couldn't apply Decade Asumu's story to Tsukasa, nor Decade Kazuma's (because Tsukasa would have no reason to worry about losing a ranking in some random world) or Decade Shouichi's (The whole G3 -> Gills -> Agito evolution and his connection to Yashiro).

Actually, I wonder if they couldn't just bring back one or two supporting characters from the previous shows into each World as they did Hibiki and Den-O. I could easily imagine Tsukasa trying to fill Shinji's shoes in stopping Kanzaki Shiro's Game only to be rebuffed by Ren.

They probably could have done that I guess. But, like I've said before, you'd still get people complaining about the "replacement Riders", only this time all the hate would be directed to Tsukasa himself.
 
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Smilodon

Friendship and the Cosmos.
What I liked about Decade, was the music. The Next Decade rocked. Gackt did a really good job on it. Oh and cant forget about not one, but TWO Minami Kotaro's appearing.

But regarding the actors: Obviously Mizushima Hiro was probably busy with Beck, Hosokawa and Odagiri Joe probably dont wanna do it, Takeru Satoh was also busy with Beck probably and no one knows about Takayama Suga.
 
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I heard that Takamasa Suga is busy with his business.
And I surprised Kento Handa not appeared in Decade, it's just one year after his appearance in Go-Onger Movie (and one of the Go-Onger episode).
 

Igadevil

Mr. Kamen Rider
I think that the idea of having a past lead Rider as the back-up/support (or dare I say, secondary Rider) of a new guy is a cool one in theory. In practice though, it needs to be done with total conviction, which is why most of the time they've stuck to the occasional team-up. That builds up the excitement and allows the new character a chance to come into their own.

It's better in the long run that the Double Riders bow out after the opening story of V3 to give him some breathing room before they come back. Had they stuck around, it'd be hard not to think of it as what it was going to be once- Kamen Rider episode #99, 100, etc, as opposed to the V3 show. Sometimes the Riders are at their best when they're just offscreen, but still ever-present in the audience's minds (i.e. New Kamen Rider)

Of course with Onodera it's tricky since he's Kuuga, but he's not the original Kuuga. It's not the same as having Godai wheelie in, juggle some curry plates and give the thumbs up. It's exciting only on one level rather than two. You get Kuuga, but it's not the same man behind the mask. In a way the whole AU business is an even harder sell than in-suit only appearances, because at least there our imagination can fill in the holes. We can believe that stunt guy is really __________, even if the voice is totally off. Here, we know from the get-go that he's not going to be the same one as Odagiri played.

And at first, I thought this was pretty interesting. He's like Kuuga if Kuuga were made now rather than in 2000. There's more confidence in the actual production, but there's less confidence in the characters themselves. Yuusuke's got issues. When things get too big for him to handle, he practically gives up! When he helps save the day, it still ends in tragedy. I kinda liked that.

It's like a deconstruction, but it's almost like its taking apart itself rather than the original. The original Kuuga is great is because he's Godai, that's what the series is all about, culiminating in the you-know-what with you-know-who and the you-know-what-form. In his debut, Onodera's not bad, but he's a far more flawed character. He can barely protect anyone's smiles if he's raging about Decade. Had they continued from there, they could have done a pretty interesting, almost reverse origin story, where the guy who is Kuuga becomes great, rather than it being about a great guy who becomes Kuuga.

Unfortunately I think the writers lost interest in Yuusuke and his capacity to be the show's "secondary Rider" pretty soon after that. He gets the odd good bit here or there, but it's clear they're struggling with him at times and the bits of Kuuga action are a courtesy. Aikawa gets bored with him after a while aside from Agito World, where he doesn't get to do the one big thing he really should've and instead is just G3-X for a while.

Kobayashi just turns him into Momotaros, though in fairness does good with him in the Shinkenger stuff. Inoue has him run from monsters and knocks him out. The Kabuto World guy just like forgot he existed (though he didn't forget about Pegasus Form! Maybe that was the script editor though, if they even have those anymore.) Yonemura had a learning curve, going from "Wait, who is this again?" in Blade World to "Ah yes Kuuga, one of the weaker Riders, right?" in Hibiki World, and finally to "Oh right... that Kuuga." in the last few.

I don't even want to get into the Odagiri thing because at this point, I don't know the whole story. I have read the interview where he expressed trepidation about taking on the role, because it's in one of the Kuuga books, and not a peep since. It all does kind of remind me of Christopher Eccleston and Doctor Who- he played the part well, he had his gripes about the production though he still spoke highly of the program, but he's moved on. He's an actor who played a role, compared to his successors who also happened to be (or quickly became) fans. It's not a perfect comparison, but that's how it sort of strikes me with Odagiri: an actor helps revive a franchise and make it a television mainstay again, then moves on to other things and hasn't looked back since. I'm probably missing a beat here though.

I don't think I could say Onodera's a replacement, because he's playing such a different character in my head. Unfortunately, in another way, he basically has become the replacement. I've got a feeling that if we see Kuuga again, it would either have to be the Onodera version or just guy-in-a-suit-with-a-voice. Who knows though- I could see Odagiri making a big return to the Tokusatsu scene when his career starts to cool down a bit. It's happened before.
 

Smilodon

Friendship and the Cosmos.
I think that the idea of having a past lead Rider as the back-up/support (or dare I say, secondary Rider) of a new guy is a cool one in theory. In practice though, it needs to be done with total conviction, which is why most of the time they've stuck to the occasional team-up. That builds up the excitement and allows the new character a chance to come into their own.

It's better in the long run that the Double Riders bow out after the opening story of V3 to give him some breathing room before they come back. Had they stuck around, it'd be hard not to think of it as what it was going to be once- Kamen Rider episode #99, 100, etc, as opposed to the V3 show. Sometimes the Riders are at their best when they're just offscreen, but still ever-present in the audience's minds (i.e. New Kamen Rider)

Of course with Onodera it's tricky since he's Kuuga, but he's not the original Kuuga. It's not the same as having Godai wheelie in, juggle some curry plates and give the thumbs up. It's exciting only on one level rather than two. You get Kuuga, but it's not the same man behind the mask. In a way the whole AU business is an even harder sell than in-suit only appearances, because at least there our imagination can fill in the holes. We can believe that stunt guy is really __________, even if the voice is totally off. Here, we know from the get-go that he's not going to be the same one as Odagiri played.

And at first, I thought this was pretty interesting. He's like Kuuga if Kuuga were made now rather than in 2000. There's more confidence in the actual production, but there's less confidence in the characters themselves. Yuusuke's got issues. When things get too big for him to handle, he practically gives up! When he helps save the day, it still ends in tragedy. I kinda liked that.

It's like a deconstruction, but it's almost like its taking apart itself rather than the original. The original Kuuga is great is because he's Godai, that's what the series is all about, culiminating in the you-know-what with you-know-who and the you-know-what-form. In his debut, Onodera's not bad, but he's a far more flawed character. He can barely protect anyone's smiles if he's raging about Decade. Had they continued from there, they could have done a pretty interesting, almost reverse origin story, where the guy who is Kuuga becomes great, rather than it being about a great guy who becomes Kuuga.

Unfortunately I think the writers lost interest in Yuusuke and his capacity to be the show's "secondary Rider" pretty soon after that. He gets the odd good bit here or there, but it's clear they're struggling with him at times and the bits of Kuuga action are a courtesy. Aikawa gets bored with him after a while aside from Agito World, where he doesn't get to do the one big thing he really should've and instead is just G3-X for a while.

Kobayashi just turns him into Momotaros, though in fairness does good with him in the Shinkenger stuff. Inoue has him run from monsters and knocks him out. The Kabuto World guy just like forgot he existed (though he didn't forget about Pegasus Form! Maybe that was the script editor though, if they even have those anymore.) Yonemura had a learning curve, going from "Wait, who is this again?" in Blade World to "Ah yes Kuuga, one of the weaker Riders, right?" in Hibiki World, and finally to "Oh right... that Kuuga." in the last few.

I don't even want to get into the Odagiri thing because at this point, I don't know the whole story. I have read the interview where he expressed trepidation about taking on the role, because it's in one of the Kuuga books, and not a peep since. It all does kind of remind me of Christopher Eccleston and Doctor Who- he played the part well, he had his gripes about the production though he still spoke highly of the program, but he's moved on. He's an actor who played a role, compared to his successors who also happened to be (or quickly became) fans. It's not a perfect comparison, but that's how it sort of strikes me with Odagiri: an actor helps revive a franchise and make it a television mainstay again, then moves on to other things and hasn't looked back since. I'm probably missing a beat here though.

I don't think I could say Onodera's a replacement, because he's playing such a different character in my head. Unfortunately, in another way, he basically has become the replacement. I've got a feeling that if we see Kuuga again, it would either have to be the Onodera version or just guy-in-a-suit-with-a-voice. Who knows though- I could see Odagiri making a big return to the Tokusatsu scene when his career starts to cool down a bit. It's happened before.

Great insight Igadevil. It would've been great to have Onodera become more like Godai, but in the end Kuuga will always be Odagiri.

I always imagined IF Odagiri came back to Kamen Rider, I'd be hoping itd be in the continuaty of Kuuga/Agito. It'd be cool if it was a surprise though, Toei would keep their mouths shut about Odagiri's return, and in the first episode, a random Lord would attack a new, incapable G3-X would attempt to fend off the Lord after years of peace and then, BAM Odagiri comes in doing a wheelie. -opening credits roll-.

@RossoEagleBurst
Nice Av and Sig. I love Shiori Kutsuna. And Beck:buttrock:
 

Forever Knight

Eye See You
Goddamn it would be nice if for once a discussion of Kuuga could go by without this coming up.

We both know that will NEVER happen. Just like any convo involving AJJ and PR.

They probably could have done that I guess. But, like I've said before, you'd still get people complaining about the "replacement Riders", only this time all the hate would be directed to Tsukasa himself.

I would also have been on the list of complainers if the Decade story did not explain why the original Riders weren't involved (except the VA's, Finale Blade, and Black/RX of course).
 

Black Fang

Active Member
I think you need to consider not only Toei's probable cheapness regarding money, but also the series schedule. Those actors would need free time at the right moment of specific arcs in order to allow the recordings. The summer movie is recorded in a schedule similar to the show's, so it basically has the same problem. Then, there are also people who just wouldn't return in any situation...

My ultimate point is, Toei should have done gone for all-or-nothing. If they could get back the alumni, then by all means go ahead and do a show like Decade. If they could not get them, then they should have just done something else. Instead they tried an awful compromise and threw in as much fanwanking garbage as possible to placate those fans who would just take whatever is given to them. The result: one of the worst tokus, most insulting ever made.

What? I was trying to say is that if you eliminated the AU Riders (and main Riders), you'd be left with Tsukasa and a bunch of minor secondary characters in the series.

Also, Tsukasa wouldn't be able to replace the AU Riders effectively all the time due to his own character too. You couldn't seriously make him go through 9 phases of character development in 18 episodes without making him just schizophrenic.

I said Tsukasa, through his adventures in the Worlds, could learn something about the Rider of that World by the secondary characters. Essentially it could be a Gao-vs-SS style tutorial for him, the newest Rider, until he faced the ultimate enemy.

His development also would be limited due to his own lack of specific connections with each world. You couldn't apply Decade Asumu's story to Tsukasa, nor Decade Kazuma's (because Tsukasa would have no reason to worry about losing a ranking in some random world) or Decade Shouichi's (The whole G3 -> Gills -> Agito evolution and his connection to Yashiro).

I didn't say leave everything 100% unchanged except for Tsukasa replacing each AU Rider. Obviously things would have to be adjusted, but the premise would still work.

They probably could have done that I guess. But, like I've said before, you'd still get people complaining about the "replacement Riders", only this time all the hate would be directed to Tsukasa himself.

So what? There are people who complain about Agito or Liveman or Nexus. But for the most part they're considered some of the best entries in their respective franchises. You can't cite finicky fans as a reason not to rewrite Decade in a non-abhorrent way.
 

Xtreme RX

Member
He was a good actor. By all respects, he even suceeded in adding a little emotion than Odagiri. But Odagiri was a better Kuuga. But I treat both as completely different characters, because in continuity, they are.
 

MattComix

Super Moderator
He was a good actor. By all respects, he even suceeded in adding a little emotion than Odagiri. But Odagiri was a better Kuuga. But I treat both as completely different characters, because in continuity, they are.

Well yeah. Onodera was fighting for the smile of one person and it's Yashiro that teaches him to extend that to the larger picture. Onodera's arc kinda works him up to being what Godai was from the start. (Even the show doesn't really follow through on this because after his arc he's just relegated to junior dumbass). The danger with Godai was what if he loses his kind heart to hate and because of that the power of Kuuga consumes him.

With Onodera, he might have achived his powers quickly but he would have been soooo much more susceptible to the temptations of Kuuga's power if not for Yashiro-san.
 

Thunder025

Active Member
Yes... I think Onodera was a good replacement. We need to count the fact that Godai was a main character and Onodera a support character.

Ryuta Murai really gave his best to look like Odagiri Joe, to laugh like Godai and to act like so, but at the end the writers didn't gave him a good role, without action parts. They realised his importance in Hibiki's World when he returned as a Rider, not as a comic relief.
 

Red Ranger

Member
After reading most of these mostly positive opinions about the character and how it was dissapointing he was somewhat pushed under the rug, I was thinking it would be pretty interesting/plausible for Onodera Kuuga to get a solo movie/chou den-o story. Being able to give full attention to the character would really help him out. Would anyone else like to see that?
 

Xtreme RX

Member
Toei would never do that. Kuuga only returned for half-a-year for the sake of a ten-year anniversary as a support characters, so technically, the real Kuuga story ended around ten years ago. Unless Toei remakes Kuuga to boost sales, a movie like that probably wouldn't happen.

Granted that it did, however, I would watch it. It'd be a good idea. Just don't mix it in with Den-O...
 

Red Ranger

Member
I only bring it up because obviously Toei felt Diend was good enough to get his own Den-o movie. Murai himself is always credited higher than Diend. So there should be no difference.
 

NeonZ

Active Member
If they could not get them, then they should have just done something else. Instead they tried an awful compromise and threw in as much fanwanking garbage as possible to placate those fans who would just take whatever is given to them. The result: one of the worst tokus, most insulting ever made.

It was not the first time Toei featured Riders without their actors, and it won't be the last.

In order to use them a fully fledged characters in various situations, rather than soldiers in battle all the time, they came out and said that we were dealing with AU versions, rather than just keeping them in suits all the time. How is that an insult?

Essentially it could be a Gao-vs-SS style tutorial for him, the newest Rider, until he faced the ultimate enemy.

Are you serious...? Do you really think any audience would actually bother to watch a clip show series? I thought that you meant he'd go through experiences that might have some thematic connection to what the original Riders went through, while also acting in their original setting and eventually getting their suit to reinforce the connections, not actually standing around learning about them.

If your idea actually involved standing around learning about them... Eh... no. No one besides a small group of older fans would even care about a series like that. That would be a much bigger fanwank than Decade itself was.

So what? There are people who complain about Agito or Liveman or Nexus. But for the most part they're considered some of the best entries in their respective franchises. You can't cite finicky fans as a reason not to rewrite Decade in a non-abhorrent way.

But you seem to want to rewrite it just because you disagreed with a creative decision, rather than due to the real problems of the show.

There's nothing wrong about the concept of alternate versions of old characters. It's done all the time for various reasons even in mediums that would have no limitation due to casting.

Saying that Decade should have featured the original characters and actors more is one thing. I agree with that... but you don't seem to be speaking only about that. You seem to consider the existence of alternate versions by itself an insulting flaw, even though there's nothing inherently wrong about that concept.

After reading most of these mostly positive opinions about the character and how it was dissapointing he was somewhat pushed under the rug, I was thinking it would be pretty interesting/plausible for Onodera Kuuga to get a solo movie/chou den-o story. Being able to give full attention to the character would really help him out. Would anyone else like to see that?

It'd be an interesting idea, but, like Diend, they probably would need to tie him to some other Rider, rather than giving him a truly solo feature. I really don't think Toei would make a movie titled "Kamen Rider Kuuga" featuring Onodera as the protagonist.
 
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Black Fang

Active Member
In order to use them a fully fledged characters in various situations, rather than soldiers in battle all the time, they came out and said that we were dealing with AU versions, rather than just keeping them in suits all the time. How is that an insult?

So you don't think it's a slap in the face to the fanbase by saying "Yeah we're not going to try to do something special with our alumni, we're just going to stick some random faces into old costumes and say it's an AU. And you will enjoy it." As I keep saying, if Tsubaraya can get alumni back regularly, I can't believe Toei, a larger company with more funds, would find it so impossible.

Are you serious...? Do you really think any audience would actually bother to watch a clip show series? I thought that you meant he'd go through experiences that might have some thematic connection to what the original Riders went through, while also acting in their original setting and eventually getting their suit to reinforce the connections, not actually standing around learning about them.

Am I the only one who enjoyed what Gao-vs-SS did?

But to answer your question, what I meant was that it would take the idea from GvSS of the newest hero learning from his predecessors. Only in Decade, it would be Tsukasa fighting in place of each Rider and learning about them from the secondary characters. Why is that so bad?

But you seem to want to rewrite it just because you disagreed with a creative decision, rather than due to the real problems of the show.

A lot of the real problems stemmed from this "creative decision". A lot of people in the fandom hated this "creative decision" on the principle itself. The excuses people make for Toei being unable to do anything else are weak in my view.

Saying that Decade should have featured the original characters and actors more is one thing. I agree with that... but you don't seem to be speaking only about that. You seem to consider the existence of alternate versions by itself an insulting flaw, even though there's nothing inherently wrong about that concept.

It never seemed to me that you thought that. You always appeared to be the type that thought what Decade did was fantastic.

Maybe AU in itself isn't a bad idea. But that's not what I nor many other people wanted in Decade. And the way Decade did it was terrible in and of itself.
 

NeonZ

Active Member
So you don't think it's a slap in the face to the fanbase by saying "Yeah we're not going to try to do something special with our alumni, we're just going to stick some random faces into old costumes and say it's an AU. And you will enjoy it." As I keep saying, if Tsubaraya can get alumni back regularly, I can't believe Toei, a larger company with more funds, would find it so impossible.

Is that the best possible outcome? No. But I really don't think it's insulting. Really, we're talking about shows where often these actors aren't on screen at all, just dubbing other people in suits. They all had their own series for character development, I don't think the lack of it in a later appearance is damning.

Besides, Toei never tried to fool people into thinking that the new faces were actually replacing the originals either. The AU take allowed the versions featured throughout most of Decade to actually be characters rather than just soldiers fighting all the time, and they did feature some old actors too.

Regarding those faces, even if you ignore the quick cameos of Shouichi's actor and the ones that were voice only, you've still got Wataru's, Kenzaki's and Kotaro's actors in their old roles, and an even bigger number of secondary characters.

Am I the only one who enjoyed what Gao-vs-SS did?

You know the way you talk about Decade? Gao vs SS is one of the few tokusatsu features I've watched that actually felt like an insult to me.

I wanted to see Sentai celebrating its history, not getting drown by it in waves of flashbacks. The Gaoranger didn't need to learn those pointless lessons and no one needed those flashbacks. All the Red warriors standing around in the final battle scene without lifting a finger because their "spirit" helped the -current- heroes, treating the older ones almost like ghosts, just sources of inspiration, rather than actual present heroes, just clinched it. That didn't feel like an anniversary.

In an anniversary, the one celebrated is there, present, commemorating another year. Gao vs SS was more like a memorial, making people remember bygone times.

In Gao vs SS, when the Gaorangers are defeated, 5 older Super Sentai members appear to inspire them and leave afterwards, acting almost like they weren't part of the world, just meant to inspire rather than act.

In All Riders, when Decade and Diend are surrounded by an army of monsters, the previous Riders actually march forward to fight, and only leave after Dai Shocker is reduced to dust in that world.

It never seemed to me that you thought that. You always appeared to be the type that thought what Decade did was fantastic.

I liked Decade's overall set up. I enjoyed most AUs. I wasn't disappointed by Decade's overall plotline, unlike others, even after movie wars (which I thought was a fitting conclusion, considering the set up done throughout the series, even if it was nothing like the initially advertised movie)... So, my overall impressions of the series are positive. However, that doesn't mean I liked everything it did.

The Rider tournament in All Riders was stupid, Super Shocker (and Movie Wars' final battle in general) was really underwhelming, and, like I've said, I think they could have featured more previous leads, even with the current set up and considering casting limitations.

Kenzaki was featured as this big antagonist in the final 2 episodes but basically only did some generic grunts and yelled Tsukasa's name during Blade's battle in Movie Wars, that was just disappointing. The same for Wataru's group in general just disappearing after his plan was done. Yuusuke's misuse at times was pretty bad too.

Just because usually I defend the series, it doesn't mean I liked everything it did and have no criticisms regarding it.
 
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Forever Knight

Eye See You
After reading most of these mostly positive opinions about the character and how it was dissapointing he was somewhat pushed under the rug, I was thinking it would be pretty interesting/plausible for Onodera Kuuga to get a solo movie/chou den-o story. Being able to give full attention to the character would really help him out. Would anyone else like to see that?

Kuuga was lucky to get the tv time he did in Decade, why people ***** about it is beyond me considering it wasn't HIS series and he wasn't the main character to begin with and considering the series was short. He went on with the others for the adventure in the other worlds and I'm fine with that. Kuuga no Seikai was also a great 2 parter aswell. I don't think the character himself needed to do anymore in the series.
 

Black Fang

Active Member
Then...... why did they keep him around? Why did they make him into a completely useless idiot? If Onodera's story was done with the end of Kuuga's World, then he should have been left behind.
 

Oblivion

Lurker
He was the sole buttmonkey of the show. For someone potraited as an alternative version of Kuuga, I don't want to see that person be a buttmonkey.
 

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