What's with the hate of Kamen Rider Wizard?

Somewhat. If it is the same character, then they could be in a different mood or their attitude, at leas I dress that way. It could also work for a character with a split personalty. In Do No Harm Ian wears darker colors while Jason wears brighter ones.

Then, it's not foreshadowing. It's making a distinction through color contrast.

Your thing about Super TaToBa vs. TaToBa would mean that because they are inverted, and the bright colors are more dominant, he is full of energy and re-charged.

But you only concluded that AFTER the fact. Again, not foreshadowing.

*raises hand*

Even if that were true, which I doubt happened when you first saw white wizard, that makes you a very small minority. Which means, if it IS foreshadowing, it's a really bad one, and thus negligible.

But, without said color on the Magic Stone, how would we know what is which?

Irrelevant. It's still not foreshadowing.

I was just giving an explanation of what the colors meant.

Yes, but explaining what the colors mean doesn't imply foreshadowing.
 
@GokaiPrinny: They do stop and give us a little background on Haruto much, much later on, but it doesn't really... amount to anything, unfortunately. Where we are now, we're no better or even worse off than we were before we got it.

I personally think Haruto's personality does get better as the show goes on, but more when he's doing gags/interactions with Nitou (or even Phantoms) than anything related to the other characters or, unfortunately, plot - but it's clear that there IS a set personality for him, it just doesn't get to shine that often.

Really though, in concept, Haruto DOES have a fairly dark setup. He's got a monster living inside of him that's waiting to take over at any moment, he's lived through this horrific ritual where at least a few dozen people were all brutally killed from the inside, and all of that good stuff. The thing is, the show is just so... light hearted that it doesn't really take any of that seriously, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - a light hearted show can be great.

Wizard just isn't.
 
*insert text here*

Then, it's not foreshadowing. It's making a distinction through color contrast.

Right, right. When Jason get dizzy, that is foreshadowing when Ian will appear. Opps.

But you only concluded that AFTER the fact. Again, not foreshadowing.

Right, right.

Even if that were true, which I doubt happened when you first saw white wizard, that makes you a very small minority. Which means, if it IS foreshadowing, it's a really bad one, and thus negligible.

All I did was point it out; Toei makes the big calls on those.

Irrelevant. It's still not foreshadowing.

Agree to disagree.

Yes, but explaining what the colors mean doesn't imply foreshadowing.

I was just going for the color there.
 
I really think bringing in Mayu at the last minute and trying to build her up as important after rushing her debut in a 2-episode arc several months previously was a dreadful idea but, although I like Beast (and I agree that he's entertaining, more so than Haruto or Koyomi) not having him might have given a chance to focus more on her story

That involves assuming that camera time not given to Beast would've gone to Mayu instead, and I don't think that's the case. Since her status as Mage is clearly meant to be negative, it was probably never meant to be something developed extensively on-camera. She was meant to disappear with White Wizard for awhile and return in time to set up the end game. If Beast didn't exist, we'd probably just see Nitou's filler arcs replaced with filler where Haruto was a central figure. Whether that's a better or worse status quo will probably lie in the eye of the beholder.

In short, if we're going to get into "what ifs" like that, we might as well stop talking about the show as it actually is entirely.

I disagree. In a well-written story, discussion of these "what ifs" serve to highlight the narrative's underlying logic. It will become very clear, in discussing the possibilities, why things couldn't have happened differently. It will be obvious that the alternatives would make less sense, or would at the very least completely change the story's meaning. When you can discuss things happening differently, and it seems like that change would have no substantial overall impact on the narrative, then you are by definition dealing with weak writing.

I think Beast's core problem isn't so much how he's been handled (because that just gets back to Wizard's core problem of mishandling everything - Beast is collateral at that point), but how he was conceptualized in the first place. They just never really gave him much to work with to begin with (which gets back to how the show never really cared about plot for most of its run), and, as I just said, with the show almost never focusing on plot as it was, it took until now - when it finally decided to care about plot - for Beast to actually get the table scraps of a plot of some kind.

I disagree with this, too. I think Beast's set-up was extraordinarily rich from a narrative perspective. There's a lot of stories about him that could have been told, had the writers chosen to take the character seriously and give him a substantial role. I will outline just a few of the obvious ones.

He could've served as an additional obstacle to Haruto for a time. Perhaps Nitou could've been in such fear of being devoured that he'd side with Wiseman for a time, hoping to ensure his own survival by ensuring that more Phantoms are born. That would've put Haruto in a position to display his own heroic virtues, by allowing him to sway Nitou into accepting a less certain but also more heroic life. (The show flirts with this by having Medusa make this argument at Nitou early on, but he rather improbably dismisses it out of hand, ensuring that the story will never focus on his problems for too long.)

He could've been treated as a wild card, pursuing his own agenda so much that it's hard to tell whether he'll be friend or foe when he wades into a battle. What if he'd tried harder to pursue Phoenix, perhaps hoping that devouring a being of infinite mana would sate Chimera once and for all? He could've fought Phoenix to a standstill, gone in for the kill, and then perhaps discovered that Phoenix's power was too much to devour. Or perhaps White Wizard would've made it clear to Haruto that if Chimera devoured Phoenix, Chimera would in turn become a new threat. That could've heightened the stakes for the already-tense Phoenix battle. And I promise, it would've been more interesting than Haruto going, "Hey, I think I need to kill Phoenix myself to regain my confidence" and Nitou going, "Sure, bro, good luck."

Beast could've been presented as a thorn in White Wizard's side, interfering in his plans simply by existing. Perhaps at a critical juncture, Haruto allowed Nitou to get a kill instead of pushing to do it himself. If Beast was presented as effective enough to slow Wizard's evolution, then White Wizard's sinister nature could've been demonstrated far earlier in the storyline, forcing Haruto to have more of an emotional reaction to it. If White Wizard began clearly trying to undermine and destroy Beast, Wizard then could pro-actively go to defend his brother Kamen Rider, and begin questioning the whole status quo more actively. Wouldn't that be more interesting than White Wizard meeting Beast once and going, "Pffft, don't get eaten, loser"?

The only reason why stuff like this didn't happen was because the writers clearly didn't want to have anything really important in the story hinge on Beast's presence. They wanted it to be the Haruto show, where only Haruto did important things, and only important things happened to Haruto. Beast generally stepped forward for either storylines that were irrelevant, or storylines that involved failing. Most of Beast's potential conflicts were simply written out with brief scenes of dialogue, instead of being used to create more drama and enrich the storyline. And there's a LOT of write-out scenes like this, because Beast was a character with lots of good conflicts built into his premise!

Daguva's outfit was mostly, if not all, white and he was evil. :loltongue:

There's a good reason for this. In traditional Japanese folklore, white is the color of death. It's the color associated with the dead, since ghosts are believed to wear long white robes and have pale faces. It's also the color worn at traditional funerals. The Western idea of white = life and black = death doesn't get imported into Japanese culture until the years following World War II.
 
I haven't read all the topic but here is what I don't like about Wizard, sorry if it is repetition:

- The story hasn't gone anywhere in 40+ episodes. Everything STILL turns around mainly in the stuff mentioned in episode 1 and 2. Of course, there was some developments here and there but I don't get the sense that the story is advancing in any way.

- The characters are just not that likable.
Starting with the Riders, Haruto is a cool guy but that's it, he is the same cool Gate-saving mage he was in episode one, with the EXACT same speech as in the first episode, he didn't evolve or progressed (yes, we got to see his origins, but they mostly explain, not move stuff forwards).

Nitoh is... mehh... He tries too hard to be the annoying-funny guy. But, surprisingly enough, he is more well developed than the main Rider, he changed a lot since his first appearance. I must admit that Nitoh's presence makes Haruto a better character because of the never ending provocation between the two.

The support cast for me is a failed attempt to replicate a Kamen Rider Club, but this time there was NO point of it existing. In rare occasions Rinko and Shunpei felt useful (less than a handful). Koyomi is a boring character, I don't know if it is how she is written or because the actress is inexperienced but she doesn't deserve (and she is not ready) for all the importance here character has in the story.

The villains are very dull, I had high hopes for Gremlin but after his origin-story arc his role became so much less important that what he was in the beginning. Wiseman is not menacing for a final villain, and I hope he is not.

- Wizard's overpoweredness bothers me quite a lot. He is a VERY powerful Rider both in and outside the Underworld and that annoys me because a Rider that wins all the time is not fun. In 40+ episodes not a single Phantom was born (and thats another reason I think the story is stuck in the same point) and Haruto won mostly every fight (the ones he lost is because he didn't use Style X or Dragon Y).

- The series tone also bothers me. It appears it doesn't know what it wants to be. Lately, the episodes have featured A LOT of slapstick comedy and it doesn't fit the characters or the ambiance creating embarrassing scenes as opposed to funny ones.

That being said, I think Wizard is a cool Rider, but it stops there. I still watch it every week for the fights and to be able to comment it but is not a series that I am eager for the next episode like the previous ones.
 
beast stuff
I think you're misunderstanding me a bit, so let me rephrase what I was saying that you quoted, because I think we actually agree on this point, we're just wording it really differently.

On paper, yes, Beast's concept is good. But Beast's concept isn't just a concept anymore, it's a concept that's alive and moving and stuck in Wizard (the show). Wizard is a show that isn't focusing on plot, it isn't focusing on its characters, it isn't focusing on... anything, really. So, to that end, because he got a backstory/"plot" that wasn't involved with the bare bit that Wizard WAS focusing on (Haruto's story/the ritual/Wiseman/etc.), he was doomed.

For example, had the secondary Rider just been another survivor of the ritual, there would have been a lot to work with, they could have eased into the plot/story with no problems at all, and even brought their own motivations with no problem - because it would still all directly be tied to what mattered to the writers.

But because Beast is bringing in this whole story that's irrelevant to the writers, I'm saying that's why, in that way, he was doomed from the start, and thus why I'm saying the concept was wrong - it's not an inherently bad concept, but when it comes to Wizard, any other concept is inherently bad because the writers barely care about the main concepts as it is - there's no way secondary ones are going to get the time of day.

I'm... still not sure if I'm making sense, but reading myself over, I guess I DO mean more that they're mishandling him moreso than I mean his concept is inherently flawed, huh? Sorry about that. :laugh:
 
Legion.

There's a good reason for this. In traditional Japanese folklore, white is the color of death. It's the color associated with the dead, since ghosts are believed to wear long white robes and have pale faces. It's also the color worn at traditional funerals. The Western idea of white = life and black = death doesn't get imported into Japanese culture until the years following World War II.

I wanted to post that, but I have not watched Kuuga, I just went with what I thought was right. But, Legion also follows this as well.
 
Wizard is a show that isn't focusing on plot, it isn't focusing on its characters, it isn't focusing on... anything, really.

I think Wizard wanted to be one of those shows that marks time between its big plot movements by doing done-in-twos that explore different aspects of its core theme. There's other tokusatsu and even other Rider shows that have taken this approach successfully. It doesn't work in Wizard for a handful of really specific reasons:

1) The writers are just, well, not very good at coming up with the short stories the done-in-twos need to survive. The guest characters tend to be indifferent or outright dislikable, the individual Phantoms tend to be dull, and the situations tend to not be very compelling (or, sometimes, outright nonsense). A tokusatsu show's metaplot can go nowhere, but so long as individual episodes are fun to watch, most viewers will be content. I'm sure much of the complaints about Wizard's story going nowhere are actually complaints about the show not being any fun to watch when the plot isn't happening.

2) Wizard's theme is finding hope in despair, right? I don't think anybody would dispute that. Well, if you want to do a theme-driven henshin hero show, that's some of the worst possible subject matter. Why? Show me a Japanese superhero who's not about that already! That's the core of Ultraman, where we hope the Giant of Light will arrive to help the humans when they can no longer defend themselves. That's the core of Super Sentai, where we hope a team of people can work together to do what no single person can. And it's also the core of every Kamen Rider that isn't Wizard! Rider-1 and Rider-2 had to push back Shocker against all odds just as much as Gentaro tried to befriend others against all odds. Wizard wants to spend huge chunks of its run time exploring a theme so generic that literally every other show in its genre has also explored it. Of course it's boring.

3) Theme-driven shows need to be really consistent about making the theme resonant with the way situations are resolved. This means finding a variety of resolutions, or at the very least, resolutions that feel different even if they aren't. A major problem Wizard has is that almost every situation that involves Haruto has roughly the same resolution, and it's not one that's really resonant with how hope affects actual people. After a period of frustration or self-doubt, Haruto musters up his confidence and willpower, and summons the power to totally overwhelm his foe. Beast's situations tend to be similar, although at least we know Beast might fail or only get partial victories sometimes. So everything Haruto does is repetitive even by the standards of a highly repetitive genre, which contributes to a feeling of staleness when watching weekly episodes.

These aren't intractable problems. Ultimatum proved that handing the Wizard cast to a more talented writer, with no other changes made whatsoever, still resulted in substantial improvement. You could simply hand Wizard to Junko Komura and probably get a more engaging series, even with the exact same plot and minimal changes to other parts of the status quo.

For example, had the secondary Rider just been another survivor of the ritual, there would have been a lot to work with, they could have eased into the plot/story with no problems at all, and even brought their own motivations with no problem - because it would still all directly be tied to what mattered to the writers.

On the other hand, a secondary Rider who shared Haruto's origins would make Haruto non-unique. And if you've paid attention to Wizard's writing at all, it clearly assumes the perspective that we should all automatically detest the idea of Haruto no longer being unique. We were supposed to view Mayu's transformation into Mage as tragic, we were supposed to be happy when the bike kid decided to be normal, and the entire premise of the Wizard fall movie is how awful it is for Haruto to be in a universe where everyone has the exact same powers he does.

I think basically any secondary Rider, regardless of origin, would get crapped on by the writing the exact same way Beast did. Beast's sin isn't who he is or having his own storyline, it's just that he's not Haruto. I feel like someone on production-- possibly Kida or Utsunomiya-- thinks that Haruto needs to be completely unique, special, and peerless in order to be interesting. If anything, I think a secondary Rider who shared a similar origin to Haruto might be treated even worse than Beast. I think you'd get even more story beats about proving how that guy is inherently worse than Haruto in every way.
 
Really though, in concept, Haruto DOES have a fairly dark setup. He's got a monster living inside of him that's waiting to take over at any moment, he's lived through this horrific ritual where at least a few dozen people were all brutally killed from the inside, and all of that good stuff. The thing is, the show is just so... light hearted that it doesn't really take any of that seriously, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - a light hearted show can be great.

Wizard just isn't.

This is my main gripe with post-Decade Rider. OOO and Fourze in particular had this issue most of the time.
 
There's something I want to get of my chest about this show:

Yes, I rag on wizard. Mostly because I'm dissapointed with it. It's wasting potential. The main writer seems to hate Beast, the plot goes everywhere and somtimes where it's suppoed to go and the plot points are sometime blatently obvious. The producer obviously doesn't know how to handle this show and it's turning into a clucky mess. Yet I still watch it time to time? Why? Because they put at least SOME effort into it. There are genuine moments where I forgive the show for the bullshit it sometimes serves up. The characters shine at these rare moments and really show their potential... only to forget about that in the next episode and sometime even act out of character.

I like the gimics and fights in Wizard. That iIS what I enjoy most of the times in the show. Their aren't always logic, so I find myself spouting questions at the screen why Wizard/Beast doesn't make a logical/tactical choice...

I keep returning with hope the show improves, and in the final arc it does. I think Wizard will have a very strong ending.
 
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