What is Tokusatsu: A Fact Based Definition

I'm not sure you read anything I wrote....

Welcome to my world.

Little by little, I think that deference to tradition and the supposed culture attached to it is going to fade away because American films do have the global and influential reach. There's always the ideal that the American market and imitation of it and its films is something to be striven for in the Japanese film industry. (that debacle with the recent Space Battleship Yamato comes to mind) Anno is very close to the medium, and as much weight as what he says might have, he's not going to be the most objective person in the world regarding the subject.

Japan is a cultural quagmire. 'Repetition' is the word of the day, every day. Except on days when it's 'tradition'. I'm truly surprised by the quote in that post having come from a prominent Japanese content producer. It feels like every time I read a quote from a Japanese creator these days it's stuck in the past.

I still don't see how a word that's not in the dictionary can have a definition that's "fact based".

But this here, this is my real objection to this analysis. Even though it is presented in a scholarly way and provides support from supposed experts in the field...there is no vindication of those experts, and ethos plays very poorly with me. You have deferred your own opinion to somebody else's, and that is no more factual than if you had simply stated an opinion yourself.

Now, what I believe is broadly the same as what is quoted in the OP. Tokusatsu, above and beyond its literal meaning, is a style. Much like I use the term "JRPG" to mean "traditional game in the style of Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest" despite the dictionary definition of the acronym's component pieces.

But that doesn't mean that it is exclusive to Japan. "Imitation Toku" is not a sub-genre, it's an insult and a complaint. It's saying "that IS tokusatsu...but you did it badly." I may not call shows like Doctor Who and Star Trek specifically Tokusatsu shows, since that to me says more about the purpose of the production than I am willing to attach to them. Dr. Who and Star Trek are science-fiction shows first, and that is what defines them.

But henshin'd hero shows are tokusatsu first. That is what defines them. It IS a style and it IS a philosophy about the use of SFX. Pacific Rim was not Tokusatsu, despite being a kaiju movie every bit on par with Godzilla and its ilk. Why? Because the philosophy of Toku production is not definitive of it. But some of the other western attempts at the genre, previously referenced in this thread? I'd call those Toku.

But honestly? I'd be fine with tokusatsu shows fading away. That guy that Aoi quoted is right. Only film-buffs and creators really care. Pacific Rim never once made me doubt the events playing out on screen (at least during the fights...no comment on the acting). And call me crazy, but I like to be absorbed in the narrative.
 
But honestly? I'd be fine with tokusatsu shows fading away. That guy that Aoi quoted is right. Only film-buffs and creators really care. Pacific Rim never once made me doubt the events playing out on screen (at least during the fights...no comment on the acting). And call me crazy, but I like to be absorbed in the narrative.

Pacific Rim is more a marriage between computer generated effects and practical effects, rather than completely eradicating the need for the latter.
 
Pacific Rim is more a marriage between computer generated effects and practical effects, rather than completely eradicating the need for the latter.

But this whole thread has been about how Tokusatsu is a mindset and a philosophy NOT just the concept of using practical effects. I love practical effects. The principal difference, as stated in the OP, between Toku and western VFX and CG techniques comes from one's fascination with the practical and the other's constant strive for realism.

You can consider me more a fan of the realism approach.
 
But this whole thread has been about how Tokusatsu is a mindset and a philosophy NOT just the concept of using practical effects. I love practical effects. The principal difference, as stated in the OP, between Toku and western VFX and CG techniques comes from one's fascination with the practical and the other's constant strive for realism.

You can consider me more a fan of the realism approach.

I know, I was just stating that the particular movie you mentioned also made usage of practical effects. Namely in creating the insides of the Jaegers.

But, tackling the subject of mindsets and philosophies. That all depends on the person, doesn't it? I personally feel that the usage of computer techniques does not automatically preclude something from being "tokusatsu." To me, the word only means that it's a movie where special effects take precedence. And these days a lot of shows and movies that could potentially be labeled as such use computer techniques. Though I do not use the terminology much for non-Japanese shows. That's mainly because I really don't want to leave fans of those shows scratching their heads because of confusing terms that they have never heard before.

Things like realism really depends on HOW the techniques are used. There are movies that strive to be "realistic" in their portrayals of the impossible. Others, not so much. At far as the techniques themselves go I prefer having the best of both worlds.

At the end of the day, the definition of the word depends on the person. Although after eleven pages I'm sure everybody else has come to that conclusion long before this post.
 
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I've seen CGI-laden films (like King Kong or the 90s Godzilla) that look noticeably fake. I've found myself saying to films (just yelling at the screen) "What is this ****? Go back and look at Aliens or something for why animatronics and a little KY jelly can go a long way towards creating real atmosphere!"

That's the thing about striving for realism in effects, it's all about the results. I appreciate older shows like Star Trek and the like for doing a damn good job with what they had and pulling me into the world in spite of the tech at their disposal. I never really get that feeling from toku. It's more like costume and miniature fetishism in practice than really trying to convince the viewer of anything. And if it's a design I like then I'm cool with that.

But really good special effects are the ones that I never notice are there. And like you say a lot of that is how they are used rather than what tech generates them. I went to the old Universal Studios lot tour in California and some of the **** they did with perspective and matte paintings was pretty epic (and convincing!). And **** like the final fight with Phoenix in KR Wizard really piss me off for totally breaking me out of my experience.
 
I think the miniature "fetishism" is actually born from the need of a realistic look. The best usages of miniatures that people like to gush over try their best to be indistinguishable from the real thing.
 
Japan is a cultural quagmire. 'Repetition' is the word of the day, every day. Except on days when it's 'tradition'. I'm truly surprised by the quote in that post having come from a prominent Japanese content producer. It feels like every time I read a quote from a Japanese creator these days it's stuck in the past.

There is a constant dichotomy being played out in Japanese society in which "tradition" butts heads with "modernity." Japan wants to be the most advance, the most modern, and in many ways the most "western" of all East Asian countries, and yet at the same time they don't want to loose what they feel is their own unique cultural identity which is rooted in their past. So you see this battle constantly playing out where Japan wants to be on the cutting edge of technology and modernity but they also want to keep doing things the traditional way and well, you can't really, so at some point somethings got to give.

In the case of tokusatsu it's usually that push to modernize their SFX which gives. They just say no and cite tradition as a defense. How long they can keep doing that though is a really big question. And as we've seen recently, via that article in the NY Times, it would appear the answer maybe not for much longer.

But this here, this is my real objection to this analysis. Even though it is presented in a scholarly way and provides support from supposed experts in the field...there is no vindication of those experts, and ethos plays very poorly with me. You have deferred your own opinion to somebody else's, and that is no more factual than if you had simply stated an opinion yourself.

Glamador, I appreciate your thoughtful critique of what I've written about in this thread.

Now while there is no definition of tokusatsu in any English dictionary there have been definitions given in other places (essays and books, etc...) that I've cited throughout, many of them Japanese. Also there was a time when you couldn't find the word "anime" in an English dictionary, but now you can. However just because you couldn't didn't mean that the word didn't have a set cultural meaning denoting just animation made in Japan. Tokusatsu seems be to gaining a lot more prominence in America these days - see NY Times article again - and so it's possible that it may soon end up in the dictionary as well.

As for me deferring my own opinion to somebody else's, that is essentially how the hierarchy of knowledge works. You find sources which you deem trustworthy founts of information on subjects you yourself don't know enough about to be an expert on and you adhere to their judgment. Now obviously you need to be shrewd about this and not fall into credulity and when defending your position not give into argumentum ad auctoritatem. You should also investigate everything for yourself, to the best of your ability, and think critically about what is being said by said experts. If you find evidence to contradict what your sources of information say then you should bring that evidence forward and if it's good evidence and the people you are dealing with are being intellectually honest then the new correct evidence should be accepted with no issue.

I feel that I have been as intellectually responsible as possible in this regard in my attempts to lay down a definition for tokusatsu here.

Also to clarify it's not the fact that members have disagree with me about what tokusatsu is that I find so frustrating but rather that their attitude bespeaks of individuals who have no respect for the process I just described, instead choosing to reduce everything to a state of subjective meaninglessness simply because it allows them to say whatever they want and not be wrong. Or so they think. But maybe that's just my opinion :P

I've seen CGI-laden films (like King Kong or the 90s Godzilla) that look noticeably fake. I've found myself saying to films (just yelling at the screen) "What is this ****? Go back and look at Aliens or something for why animatronics and a little KY jelly can go a long way towards creating real atmosphere!"

That's the thing about striving for realism in effects, it's all about the results. I appreciate older shows like Star Trek and the like for doing a damn good job with what they had and pulling me into the world in spite of the tech at their disposal. I never really get that feeling from toku. It's more like costume and miniature fetishism in practice than really trying to convince the viewer of anything. And if it's a design I like then I'm cool with that.

But really good special effects are the ones that I never notice are there. And like you say a lot of that is how they are used rather than what tech generates them. I went to the old Universal Studios lot tour in California and some of the **** they did with perspective and matte paintings was pretty epic (and convincing!). And **** like the final fight with Phoenix in KR Wizard really piss me off for totally breaking me out of my experience.

Everything here is very good example of what we've been talking about in this thread. You talk about "good" SFX being "convincing" and "striving for realism" and being capable of "pulling you into" the world of the film or show as a result. This is simply indicative of that western "representational" mindset that Donald Ritchie and Erik Davis talk about when it comes to art. You feel that is order for art (cinematic anyway) to be good it needs to be "real" and that that is required for it to be absorbing. But there is nothing about Japanese art that is "real." Anime, manga, noh and kabuki theater, bonsai gardens, etc... as well as tokusatsu all speak of a culture obsessed with stylization over realism.

And I think you are right when you say that tokusatsu is more about "costume and miniature fetishism in practice than really trying to convince the viewer of anything." I don't think the great tokusatsu artists we're ever trying to convince their audiences that they were looking at anything other then really good suits and miniatures, it just wasn't a prerogative for them.

I don't remember if I've mentioned this story before here but there is a famous anecdote that I first heard related by Stan Winston on AMC back in the day about Eiji Tsuburaya and the making of Frankenstein Conquers the World (65). In that film there is a scene where the kaiju Baragon attacks a farm and knocks over what are clearly a bunch of model horses. It's very "fake" looking. Apparently this caught the attention of some of the folks on Tsuburaya's staff and they approach Eiji to ask why he didn't use a photo composite of real horses (he had the technology to do so) to create something more realistic. Tsuburaya response: "Because using a model horse was more fun!"

And remember that Eiji Tsuburaya has been the example par excellence of what a tokusatsu artist should be all the way down to today. I think that should tell you everything you need to know about the mindset of the people making these movies and shows.
 
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As for me deferring my own opinion to somebody else's, that is essentially how the hierarchy of knowledge works. You find sources which you deem trustworthy founts of information on subjects you yourself don't know enough about to be an expert on and you adhere to their judgment.

You seem to have overlooked what I said about vindication and ethos earlier. I accused you of deferring your opinion not just as a criticism of your method, but also your source. Your support simply states his opinion without backup.

Everything here is very good example of what we've been talking about in this thread. You talk about "good" SFX being "convincing" and "striving for realism" and being capable of "pulling you into" the world of the film or show as a result. This is simply indicative of that western "representational" mindset that Donald Ritchie and Erik Davis talk about when it comes to art. You feel that is order for art (cinematic anyway) to be good it needs to be "real" and that that is required for it to be absorbing.

That's right. "Special effects" are about convincing the viewer than what they are seeing exists. It is the entire purpose and goal from beginning to end. But I didn't say anything about art or cinema.

I don't remember if I've mentioned this story before here but there is a famous antidote that I first heard...

Anecdote.
 

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