Super sentai and storytelling

Lynxara said:

I think Ultra fans don't realize that to the average modern tokusatsu fan, every episode of every recent Ultraman production is just as incomprehensible as parts of the Gokaiger time-travel episode would be to someone who hadn't seen Timeranger (or the right parts of Goseiger, or Goseiger vs. Shinkenger). Only it's possible to at least catch up on Goseiger and Goseiver vs Shinkenger easily, or to wade through Timeranger's raws with good episode synopses. Slogging through Ultraman's massive back catalog of shows is a more daunting proposition.

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I think the worst offender I've seen for that in Ultraman was the 'Superior Ultraman 8 Brothers' movie. At the time I could recognise original Ultraman, Ultraseven, and maybe Tiga, but I didn't even know the names of the other five Ultras in the film and I didn't recognise any of the human characters. Max may have lacked awesomeness without prior knowledge of the franchise, but that film reached the end credits without telling me the main characters' names :redface2:

I think compared to that the Gokaiger time-travel episode is pretty forgiveable. The Goseiger vs Shinkenger film came out about a month before Gokaiger started and was heavily promoted as featuring the Gokaigers. I realise that 40-something weeks is forever when you're in the Super Sentai target audience age bracket, and it does still assume that the audience has seen extra paid-for content, but it's not on the same level as assuming the audience is familiar with events from decades earlier. I hadn't seen any of Timeranger at the time, and the episode managed to communicate enough of the necessary backstory for me to figure out what must have happened and feel sad for Domon at the end. So that part of the story was handled really very well. I think the Liveman tribute did something similar. I knew nothing of the show at the time, yet Yellow Lion's speech to Joe was still an electric moment.

Lynxara said:

This is a huge, huge problem that the majority of Tsuburaya's post-Nexus Ultraman projects have when it comes to breaking through to the Western audience. Nothing is self-contained anymore, nothing is presented as if it is going to be viewed with entirely new eyes. Everything Ultra these days is steeped in nostalgia, and always written with the assumption that everybody already understands the old and complex Ultraman mythos. Maybe that's true in Japan or parts of Southeast Asia, but it's not true for most of the English-speaking fandom.

I think Ultra fans don't realize that to the average modern tokusatsu fan, every episode of every recent Ultraman production is just as incomprehensible as parts of the Gokaiger time-travel episode would be to someone who hadn't seen Timeranger (or the right parts of Goseiger, or Goseiger vs. Shinkenger). Only it's possible to at least catch up on Goseiger and Goseiver vs Shinkenger easily, or to wade through Timeranger's raws with good episode synopses. Slogging through Ultraman's massive back catalog of shows is a more daunting proposition.

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Massive Ultrafan here.
I (and a good majority of others) not only realize this, but find it to be a slow downward spiral to the franchise. "Ultraman Mebius" brought back the mythos in a way that was accessible to everyone, because it had just as many standalone episodes as it did nods and continuations of classic stories. It gave us fans glee to see this incredible balance of old and new, and we could finally return to the classic universe and expand on it without just going "Remember this?"
But then... "Ultra Galaxy: The Movie" happened. The fanbase became divisive here. Now the idea of Ultraman became to warp everything together, and instead of making new stories based on a previously unexplored idea that can work on its own, everything became ridiculously convoluted and everything had to be related to something. And by doing that, incredibly revered characters (most established as the most powerful in the universe) such as Ultraman Hayata, Zetton, King Joe, Mephilas Seijin, and other characters, became obsolete in order to make Dragonball Z characters instead. Upgrades, new obnoxiously loud villains, and in-your-face heroes took control, and yet Tsubuya still expects you to know every nook and cranny of the Showa universe. In fact, Ultraman Dyna and Ultraman Cosmos are now integrated, as is Noah, which means that EVERY universe can be integrated if you look hard enough. It's a mess, and though the effects and action have vastly improve, it's just not Ultraman anymore. Ultraman was about heroism, doing the right thing because you can, and it was about the hope of people, and how some people will always take a stand against what's wrong. Now, it's just flashy effects and shoving continuity in your face.

BoukenSilver83 said:

you can just mimick his hand to combat moves while watching.

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lazycoconut said:

Then, how would you explain Sentai's current creative slump?

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I think it's pretty much the same things that resulted in the post-Liveman creative slump. The same pool of people has been working on the franchise for awhile, and they're not getting any younger. The franchise needs new blood and fresh ideas. The good news is that Toei understands that, and is trying to figure out a new way for Sentai. The bad news is that, this time around, they're just having a hard time coming up with a new direction that people don't hate. There's not a Noboru Sugimura around to completely rethink the material without losing the target audience. Toei really just needs to keep trying until something sticks, or they find just the right talent who can really see how to make Sentai new again.

Honestly, I think Toei's suffering now from not having a third franchise going. A lot of the staffers who reinvigorated Sentai in the 90s cut their teeth on Metal Hero and Fushigi Comedy, and had time to work the kinks out of their creative styles before moving to a higher-profile series. Toei's only had its two big franchises for most of the past ten years, and there's not a "farm franchise" where the new talent can run amok and prove itself. So now that Toei really needs to start renewing its talent pool, they don't really have anyone groomed for the jobs already. Instead, we're getting weird stuff like a perennial also-ran like Takebe getting control of Sentai, before she had any time to really get acquainted with it in its modern form.

I do think each of the Gokaigers has a more defined personality than any of the Goseigers that isn't Alata, and everyone except Don has more backstory. At the very least, even at its silliest Gokaiger never gave me that "Why is Moune cheerleading?" feeling

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Well, geez, there's not a Gokaiger episode that even gets into the same ballpark of bad as the stupid Goseiger cheerleading episode. That's a pretty strong contender for worst episode of the series, and when you're talking Goseiger, that field is not exactly sparse. Not having terrible episodes muddying the waters will certainly help the Gokaiger characterizations feel more coherent.

I feel like comparing the Goseigers and Gokaigers is an apples/oranges case, though. The Gokaigers are clearly meant to be the sorts of bold, simplistic, methodical characters you'd expect from Arakawa. The Goseigers were clearly meant to be a color archetype plus a big pile of unusual personality quirks. The Gokaigers are supposed to be appealing because you want to be them and/or sleep with them, while you are supposed to want the Goseigers to come over and entertain you with antics while they solve all your problems.

When I put it that way, there seems to be an argument to be made for the Goseigers being meant at least in part as a retread of the Carrangers, and just not succeeding at making the characters nearly as likable as they needed to be. Meanwhile, the Gokaiger cast was really attempting to retread the Jetman cast's appeal, and while not wholly succeeding, doesn't fall quite so drastically short of the mark.

If you set aside Goseiger's massive technical shortcomings and assume a parallel universe where the writing in Gokaiger and Goseiger were equally good, the shows would still probably be popular with different types of people. Likewise, Gokaiger would probably still be a lot more popular, because what it's trying to do with its characters is just an easier sell. I mean, look at how Jetman fever has never really died, while the older fans were mostly just pissed off at Carranger when it was airing.

Lynxara said:

Honestly, I think Toei's suffering now from not having a third franchise going. A lot of the staffers who reinvigorated Sentai in the 90s cut their teeth on Metal Hero and Fushigi Comedy, and had time to work the kinks out of their creative styles before moving to a higher-profile series.

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I wonder if part of the problem is also a lack of any real competition in the same field to motivate them. Both Toho and Takara's attempts to make their own Toku shows in the 2000s died out after their third series so, past a certain point, there's been no real need to innovate to keep up with anyone else.

It's sort of like that weird place Nintendo fell into when Sega was dying and Sony had not yet fully developed as a competitor. (And I guess Go-Busters is the Virtual Boy equivalent in this analogy.)

I do wonder if, much like Sony, if Super Sentai continues this downward trend, others might start getting frisky again at the idea of trying to knock Toei off its perch.

Well, geez, there's not a Gokaiger episode that even gets into the same ballpark of bad as the stupid Goseiger cheerleading episode.

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I'd argue pretty much all of the Don focus episodes (including the ones he steals away from Aihm) are even worse than the cheerleading episode. While the cheerleading episode is certainly, unarguably dumb-as-balls, you can forget about it and move on when it's over since it never comes up again.

However, Don's issues of being a spineless whiner who needs to MAN UP keep reoccurring every single time the camera swings back around to him so you get the same dumb-as-balls episode every single time.

In a series that's nominally supposed to be about learning from your elders while becoming your own man, the fact that Don so aggressively reverts back to step one just highlights the fact that anything the older teams are telling him are instantly forgotten once the episode ends.

Heck, the "aggressively reverts to step one" problem is pretty much one all the main five have.

The Jetman episode is about the biggest poser in Sentai history coming back from DEATH ITSELF to tell Marvelous, "Hey, stop being a poser like I was!"

The very next episode? Marvelous is right back to being the same kind of poser he was all along and will be until the final episode.

It honestly makes the show FAR more aggravating to follow than Goseiger because having the occasional dumb-as-balls episode is annoying but Gokaiger's tendency to accidentally stumble onto something interesting and then ACTIVELY RUN AWAY FROM IT every single time is outright infuriating.

It's also just a bit weird how much of Goseiger's acting/appearance flaws are so immensely exaggerated whenever the topic gets brought up and yet the Gokaiger's are just kind of ignored or glossed over.

What is it that allows people to forgive Marvelous' inability to make an expression other than "I have very bad gas" and have absolutely no change to his tone of voice at all despite whatever mood the script calls for him to have but not Agri's "be really stiff and bare teeth in a weird, inappropriate way but generally get the idea of what emotion he's SUPPOSED to be experiencing through his tone of voice"?

FlashNeko said:

I wonder if part of the problem is also a lack of any real competition in the same field to motivate them.

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I don't think competition really has anything to do with it. It's not like we had tons of other companies producing tokusatsu in the 80s and 90s. Yeah, Tsuburaya revived Ultraman in the 90s, but Tsuburaya's shows ran in different time slots and really seemed to be doing their own thing.

However, Don's issues of being a spineless whiner who needs to MAN UP keep reoccurring every single time the camera swings back around to him so you get the same dumb-as-balls episode every single time.

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I think you just dislike Don but are indifferent to Moune? This is what your argument amounts to:"I hate this character and everything he's about, so I hate it when he has camera time." Yeah, that subjective factor will decrease enjoyment, but that's not really an assessment of quality.

If you set aside any particular feelings toward Don, his episodes aren't poorly made or illogically written. No, they're not great, and like most Sentai that's not great, Gokaiger's repetition of theme is quite noticeable. Still, the Don episodes aren't poorly made or illogical.

The cheerleading episode goes way past "not great." It is actively, relentlessly bad. The plot is fatuous nonsense, and clearly just a handwaved excuse to let the actress do her cheerleading thing that makes no sense whatsoever for her character. The whole episode seems to exist purely so there's an excuse to shoot girls in short skirts, honestly?

Gokaiger has some stupid episodes, but nothing that's stupid on the same level. And the thing with the cheerleading episode is that it occurs really early in the series, and not in a series where there's a whole lot going on at that point. It's just this condensed wall of everything awful about Goseiger, and it gives the impression that the entire show is going to be like that.

I mean, your point that Gokaiger isn't great and has a lot of flaws people overlook is valid, but there's a huge difference between "not great" and "insultingly bad." "Not great" just means that if something isn't to your personal taste, you probably won't get into it much. Even most people who otherwise defend Goseiger hate the damned cheerleading episode.

Yeah, I think a lot of this is your personal Gokaiger-hate. Just like people who hate Goseiger (for whatever reason) exaggerate other things and harp on points such as the cast's looks. I can't stand the Dark Kiva suit because Saga was edged out so Taiga Nobori could be Dark Kiva instead, and sometimes my rational brain goes "come on, Dark Kiva isn't such a horrible suit ..." Then I go YES IT IS I HATE IT I HATE IT and that's the way it goes. We all exaggerate how bad stuff is.

"Character forgets lesson in the next episode" is a problem for a lot of Sentai. How many times was Ryuji told this year to not treat Hiromu and Yoko like kids or assume he's always right, and then the following week he reverts straight back to type? And on a more general note, related more to the whole thread, why is it imperative that we pick things apart and look for "flaws"? You'll never see a series without them (my beloved Timeranger excepted and that is my final word on the matter)

Lynxara said:

I think you just dislike Don but are indifferent to Moune? This is what your argument amounts to:"I hate this character and everything he's about, so I hate it when he has camera time." Yeah, that subjective factor will decrease enjoyment, but that's not really an assessment of quality.

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But then it becomes a question of how much of the dislike of the character is just subjective taste on its own or the writing/acting of that character is objectively bad on some level causing that associative reaction whenever it comes time to focus on him.

I still count Ryotaro from Den-O as one of my favorite Rider characters and, on paper, he and Don aren't that different so if I like one and not the other there has to be some kind of objective failure in quality causing the disconnect.

I suppose it's the same disconnect I feel between Tsukasa and Marvelous even if, on paper, they're kind of the same character too.

... Meh, maybe in both those cases it really just comes down to the level of acting quality and I don't know what I'm talking about otherwise.

Even most people who otherwise defend Goseiger hate the damned cheerleading episode.

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Yeah, I've become slightly more kind to it (or at least willing to just pretend it doesn't exist at all) since I enjoyed the rest of the show.

Thinking back though, the cheerleading episode was what made me step away from the show for a bit before a friend convinced me to give it a second chance (for which I am really grateful for).

FlashNeko said:

But then it becomes a question of how much of the dislike of the character is just subjective taste on its own or the writing/acting of that character is objectively bad on some level causing that associative reaction whenever it comes time to focus on him.

I still count Ryotaro from Den-O as one of my favorite Rider characters and, on paper, he and Don aren't that different so if I like one and not the other there has to be some kind of objective failure in quality causing the disconnect.

I suppose it's the same disconnect I feel between Tsukasa and Marvelous even if, on paper, they're kind of the same character too.

... Meh, maybe in both those cases it really just comes down to the level of acting quality and I don't know what I'm talking about otherwise.

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Maybe because Ryoutarou and Tsukasa are the sole main hero and don't have to share spotlight with a team of five? Also, Ryoutarou is one of Kobayashi's creations and I seem to remember you mentioning you like her as a writer

In terms of Sentai and storytelling, I wonder if the team factor is one reason why if there's a Sentai hero vs a Kamen Rider with similar personalities/storylines, people will generally prefer the Rider

lazycoconut said:

Maybe because Ryoutarou and Tsukasa are the sole main hero and don't have to share spotlight with a team of five?

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It's more that, in this case, I realized while I was typing that I was unfairly comparing two relative newcomers against two actors who HAVE gone on to more prominent acting roles, especially in Takeru Satoh's case. :sweat: