Riders and Henshins: New bodies or armor?

Well, Black RX is an evolution of Black, and in the AR world apparently RX have no connections with Black, being a different hero.
There's no clue that AR Otoya is more than an ordinary human and Dark Kiva's powers do not affect him, differently from "the real" Otoya...

You know, they are AR Worlds, with AR Storylines, and AR characters, they're supposed to be different, even if only a little, so it's not impossible that the powers may be a bit different...
Except that the way the powers worked (the aspect I'm getting at) worked the exact same. Kiva still needed the bite to initiate his henshin, Abyss followed the same rules or mechanics as the previous Ryuki riders, AR Kuuga works just like the original, and so on so forth. Using this as evidence one would obviously assume that the abilities and limits of these powers would be identical to their "real world" counterparts. Sooo if AR Skull can do that so can real Skull.

Hibiki's Riders could pull the same thing in spite of them being full transformations...
But that only matters if you see the Hibiki riders as full body. Which I don't, and either way Hibiki Riders aren't the same as W Riders obviously, so just because riders can do something in one series doesn't mean that applies to a completely unrelated series.
 
But that only matters if you see the Hibiki riders as full body. Which I don't

You opinions have no relevance to Kamen Rider's official information though. Hibiki makes even more clear than W that those are full transformations. That would be a whole separate discussion though, so I'm not about to waste my time just for you to not acknowledge what I'm doing at all again.

and either way Hibiki Riders aren't the same as W Riders obviously, so just because riders can do something in one series doesn't mean that applies to a completely unrelated series.

I don't disagree about anything you say in that quoted bit. My point is that the helmetless shot is pretty much meaningless, considering the Hibiki example, not that it proves a similarity between W's Riders and Hibiki's.

Either way, I've already posted official quotes that basically directly mention body transformations for W and Accel, so this situation is pretty much closed. I don't see what's even up to debate here at this point regarding W, unless you go on a tangent denying the validity of anything from outside of the tv show itself.
 
Either way, I've already posted official quotes that basically directly mention body transformations for W and Accel, so this situation is pretty much closed. I don't see what's even up to debate here at this point regarding W, unless you go on a tangent denying the validity of anything from outside of the tv show itself.

unless you have that page fully translated no one can understand it and therefor doesn't help as evidence and no the picture itself isn't enough. Cut in diagrams don't have a required level of depth so for all you know thats just the main body of the suit sorta like a car when you take of the fiberglass parts. And for the record Cyclone Joker Extreme is a completely separate issue as its literally the two of them coming together instead of Philip becoming a part of Shotaro or vice versa in the case of FangJoker.

Also While W may be up for debate, theres no goddamn way Accel is. him being a full body transformation would make no sense, he would need to grow a pair of wheels and a gas cap, he's obviously in a suit.
 
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unless you have that page fully translated no one can understand it and therefor doesn't help as evidence and no the picture itself isn't enough.

Are you skipping large parts of my posts? Truthfully, I don't think translating the texts in those scans completely would change your opinion, based on what I can read there. They're just descriptions of the parts and don't talk about the transformation itself.

Still, my last post was talking about this stuff I've gotten from the official site:

Furthermore, the description of the W Driver in the site specifically mentions enhancing/strengthening Shotaro's body with a transformation, rather than just "Shotaro". "翔太郎の肉体を強化変身させ". Why would they say 翔太郎の肉体 rather than just 翔太郎 if it weren't an actual transformation of his body?

If you look at the description of obviously armored Riders, like Fourze, it just mentions "装着者", user, rather than 装着者の肉体/user's body. In addition, the description of the Accel Driver in the official site actually directly mentions "Terui Ryu's body" being transformed and "Accel's body" being "created", which gives even less space for doubt.

アクセルメモリをスロットインすることで、照井竜の肉体を変化させ、仮面ライダーアクセルのボディを生成す る。

Direct quotes talking specifically about body transformation. It's actually even more clear in Accel's case than in W's.

Also While W may be up for debate, theres no goddamn way Accel is. him being a full body transformation would make no sense, he would need to grow a pair of wheels and a gas cap, he's obviously in a suit.

Did you see what Gaia memories turn people into? I don't see how Terui growing a wheel is unbelievable at all, especially considering his bike form. Yes, his form comes from the Memory in the Driver, rather than just the memory, but it's still a Gaia Memory Driver.
 
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Did you see what Gaia memories turn people into? I don't see how Terui growing a wheel is unbelievable at all, especially considering his bike form. Yes, his form comes from the Memory in the Driver, rather than just the memory, but it's still a Gaia Memory Driver.

Did you see what the Cyclone memory turns people into along with the rest of W's gaia memories (sans Joker, Fang, and Xtreme)
[HIDE] never2.avif[/HIDE]
and don't give me some "those are T2 memories" bull, those are the "would be" dopant forms of those memories, how come W doesn't look like them? like half of the cyclone dopant and half of whatever the joker dopant looks like?

you said i had to come up with theories based pure on speculation to be a fan, well here ya go:

[HIDE]the conclusion i came to is that its because the gaia memories they are using aren't like the "T1" gaia memories, they're using more refined memories created specifically to use with this new tech. the T2 being the next stage of these. I would say it makes sense that the Lost Driver is a more advanced version of the Sonozakis gaia memory belt, they were probably trying to figure out a way to use the powers of gaia memories without having to assume a dopant form and possibly go nuts due to direct contact with the memory, as well as being able to use multiple gaia memory abilities with the only necessity being a quick change, this would allow the Sonozakis to have more powers and thus be more of a threat. Hell once they got production going, they could make an "army" with only a few guys.

I forget how, but then Narumi gets the Lost Driver and starts thwarting Museum's plans as Skull. I guess that having to deal with Skull as well as what I assume would be less resources (possibly before Foundation X funding?) making another Lost Driver was out of the question for the time so they had to set their plans back a lil bit, then they got funding from FX and decided "hey why don't we make the same thing, but make it able to use 2 memories at once?" Thus creating the W Driver became their next course of action. Then later during the W opener we see Phillip has what we would have to assume is the only finished W Driver model thus far/throughout the series.

Basically what I'm getting at is that W isn't a Dopant, if his belt worked like the sonozakis, it would just make him a half and half dopant, which he's not. The sonozakis belt just prevent against direct contact with the memory, but using the memories without the belt would still make you look the exact same you'll just end up going absolutely nuts. There for the belts and memories are separate entities. Even if they weren't that would imply that all of the "dopant forms" of the W memories would all look exactly like W but both sides would look the same. As the A to Z movie showed us thats not the case.

The Sonozaki's belts don't give them any special W esque form they just become monsters, the next step logically would be trying to find a way to get the powers without having to become a monster. Hence why they had to make a suit in order to channel the abilities since there was no way to do it otherwise. I realize they constantly state their dopant forms are beautiful but Foundation X would probably be pushing for them to do this as its the only way to use two memories at once and they saw this as the best way to build up their forces/resources[/HIDE]

There ya go.
 
I feel like we're beating a dead horse here. LaZer's arguments have repeatedly shown no intent to acknowledge that which discredits his theories. And while these attempts to logically defy his objections are informative, I fear they are pointless.

So how about evidence for Kiva hmm? Anyone have any? The transforming foot and opening mouth are hard to explain if it's a suit. It could be a living suit. I haven't finished Kiva, but I've seen enough to notice the un-suit-like elements.

How about OOO? His Tatoba legs, Tajador legs, and Shauta legs all transform in ways that clearly disrupt his normal human leg function. The Tajador claws relocate large pieces of tissue and the Batta legs seem to bend his ankles backwards.
 
I feel like we're beating a dead horse here. LaZer's arguments have repeatedly shown no intent to acknowledge that which discredits his theories. And while these attempts to logically defy his objections are informative, I fear they are pointless.

So how about evidence for Kiva hmm? Anyone have any? The transforming foot and opening mouth are hard to explain if it's a suit. It could be a living suit. I haven't finished Kiva, but I've seen enough to notice the un-suit-like elements.

Yeah, let's move on...
I think the living suit idea...humm...suits well with Kiva. The Kivats are obviously living creatures. They probably could be another race that sided with the Fangires for some reason. I remember that during the series some magazines and summarys stated that Kivats can access some kind of dark energy that cause the transformation. I think that the bite, actually injects the dark energy in the body of the user and forces the body (flesh) to assume the form of the living armor.
 
So to be a fan I have to come up with theories to explain minute details that aren't explained possibly because they aren't that important?

The mechanics are shown. We get our understanding through common sense... and scans.


I've been looking for that one. "Kamen Rider Double anatomy" got me nothing on Google Search.

Yo, captain defensive, calm your ass down. I never said whether or not you were lying. For all i knew you were mistaken, it happens to all of us but seriously that proves nothing at least out of the few bits of katakana i could translate (i honestly don't think you could have found a more pixelated copy of this image if you tried). Once again for all you know thats just the layer between Shotaro and the top layer of armor, unless you have the whole page translated and it proves your point.



Its focusing on the layer in-between the top layer of armor and shotaro, why would it show any of shotaro underneath?

so.... theres something more reasonable about him going through a metamorphosis and then physically ripping himself in half?? if thats the case where be his organs yo? oh wait its just yellow light in between, obviously this doesn't give credit to either side because the attack was clearly not made with either of those concepts in mind.

thank god for reasonable folks on here like ziginz, matt comix, and toku prime. you guys are ace:thumbs:

Who does an anatomy based on armor? Now you want us to get you scans of Rider Cells?

It's focusing on Double's anatomy. Why would it show any of regular Shotaro underneath that?

His anatomy changes. That is the whole point. His organs aren't the same as a human's organs.

Not knowing how something works does not make one reasonable.


Do Not Count.

He is Skull from an Alternate Reality

Isn't Skull rooted in alternate reality? Decade didn't make Double an alternate version of himself. There only is one Double and the Skull also is from his dimension.

I feel like we're beating a dead horse here. LaZer's arguments have repeatedly shown no intent to acknowledge that which discredits his theories. And while these attempts to logically defy his objections are informative, I fear they are pointless.

So how about evidence for Kiva hmm? Anyone have any? The transforming foot and opening mouth are hard to explain if it's a suit. It could be a living suit. I haven't finished Kiva, but I've seen enough to notice the un-suit-like elements.

How about OOO? His Tatoba legs, Tajador legs, and Shauta legs all transform in ways that clearly disrupt his normal human leg function. The Tajador claws relocate large pieces of tissue and the Batta legs seem to bend his ankles backwards.

Yeah.

I don't know about Kiva. It was painful to watch.

I thought that OOO was a suit until those changes happened. It sure looks like a body change now.
 

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