Riders and Henshins: New bodies or armor?

[Painted_Outlaw]

Er, they are new bodies. As in, well V3 puts it best. Not a single piece of him is left unaltered. You strip a Rider of his skin and you find machinery, much like with Stronger.

Agreed.
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When you modify something, you change it ranging from a little to completely; either way, it's not the same anymore and henceforth, Hongo's body can't be considered his old one anymore.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

Agito is identical to Gills and Another Agito. To say he's not a full-body transformation is just silly. It's explained thoroughly in-canon that humans that will "become Agito" are undergoing a biological change.

I think that a reason for people saying that Gills is different from Agito is because he looks different, his transformation is different, and those viewers never actually made it to the end of the series.

To those people, I say that Ashihara was affected by the power and his power as indeed classified as Agito before it was stolen. His "kid" looked like the ones from Agito and Another Agito.

 

[Glamador]

The biggest issue to wrap one's head around in this discussion is the idea that these cheap costumes that definitely LOOK like suits, could be considered biological from a canon perspective.

It's my theory that the creators of Agito specifically made their main rider look like Kuuga to keep a brand identity, but they REALLY wanted him to look like Gills, Another Agito, and his own Burning Form. This way the creators of Agito could slip in the "traditional" looking rider and appease the fanboys that would no-doubt be enraged if they saw their main rider look like Gills or AA.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

I had an issue with having all these guys being the same yet looking and acting very different and more-so when it is shown that other Agito look like Shoichi's Agito form. Gills really doesn't have much in common with Agito, but it is said that he is an Agito. I think that the production team wanted to have Gills as some kind of Rider developed through natural human evolution as opposed to having Gills be just another Agito. It's much easier to just group them together to make them become friends and whatnot.

The Burning Form does look like it's closer to flesh than metal armor, so yeah, maybe Agito's form was intended to look less like Kuuga.

I think that Agito was meant to break away from Kuuga's standards, so it tones down many of those things that the Kuuga fanboys love. It explains why they hate Agito so much.

 

[Glamador]

I love Agito and Kuuga near-equally. I see Agito as an extension of Kuuga's storyline. After all, the Grongi leaders did say that humans would become as the Grongi are. I suspect they knew something about Agito's power.


And here I get into spoilers soooo...

Spoiler

I also assumed for most of the series that Gills was NOT an Agito and was instead, as you say, a naturally developed evolution of humanity. All signs point to it. But that all gets muddied when Gills receives another character's Agito power. Is the power that gets stolen later really his own? Or is it the borrowed Agito? I was really hoping Gills would defeat the Overlord with his own power at the end of the series, after having his Exceed form stolen...

 

[Painted_Outlaw]

I think that Agito was meant to break away from Kuuga's standards, so it tones down many of those things that the Kuuga fanboys love. It explains why they hate Agito so much.

Speak for yourself, I love Agito and Kuuga (the former, just moreso).

And here I get into spoilers soooo...

Spoiler

I was really hoping Gills would defeat the Overlord with his own power at the end of the series, after having his Exceed form stolen...

Spoiler

I might be misreading you but, doesn't he use his Exceed Form in the final battle?

 

[LaZerwolfX]

Agito is identical to Gills and Another Agito. To say he's not a full-body transformation is just silly. It's explained thoroughly in-canon that humans that will "become Agito" are undergoing a biological change.

It is equally thoroughly explained in Kuuga that the Amadam belt has affected a biological change in Godai (and the Grongi). That his suit is a part of his body is without question.

This is starkly contrasted with things like G3, Kabuto, and Blade that are very definitely outer shells that are WORN by the human underneath.

Fine then I'll tentatively agree that kuuga and agito sort of apply.

And how do you explain Luna form's powers in Double if it's strictly a suit? Or Kivat's bite? It really isn't as obvious as you make it out to be. That's why we're DISCUSSING it. With REASONS.

Calm your tits dude, if you wanted reasons; ask.
Both Kivat's bite and Luna's power have the same issue that doesn't allow them to be used as evidence. We don't know what they are, at no point in either series do we learn what these abilities/functions serve. We don't know what role Kivat's bite fulfills in Kiva's henshin sequence.

(is it filling him with more "fangire-ness", is it sucking out blood aka his humanity allowing his inner fangire to take control, is it simply authorizing him to use kivat to become kiva, is it done strictly because its reminiscent of vampires and TOEI thought it would look cool?)

We don't know and until we have more info on that process you can't use it as evidence to either prove or disprove your point. at the best you can have a fairly well thought out fan theory, but until we have something more concrete its worthless as an argument.

The same goes for W we don't know enough of the details to come to a more concrete conclusion. The way I always explained it is that Double's suit is merely a basic suit that allows the powers of individual gaia memories to be channeled through it so Luna having the power of "illusions" allows Double's left half to go all Mr. Fantastic. BUT since we don't have any concrete points to argue on this topic either this is also a useless piece of evidence since without more info from the source we don't know enough to really argue either of theses concepts

 

[Glamador]

Spoiler

I might be misreading you but, doesn't he use his Exceed Form in the final battle?

Yes, you're misreading me. To elaborate:

Spoiler

At one point all 3 Agito's powers are stolen by the Overlord, Gills included. But Gills was borrowing Agito power to recover from his injury fighting Another Agito. I was HOPING that he would never get that power back and prove that he was a natural evolution that didn't need Agito's power to Henshin. But that didn't happen...he got his power back and then he could transform again. I was disappointed a bit, is all.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

I love Agito and Kuuga near-equally. I see Agito as an extension of Kuuga's storyline. After all, the Grongi leaders did say that humans would become as the Grongi are. I suspect they knew something about Agito's power.


And here I get into spoilers soooo...

Spoiler

I also assumed for most of the series that Gills was NOT an Agito and was instead, as you say, a naturally developed evolution of humanity. All signs point to it. But that all gets muddied when Gills receives another character's Agito power. Is the power that gets stolen later really his own? Or is it the borrowed Agito? I was really hoping Gills would defeat the Overlord with his own power at the end of the series, after having his Exceed form stolen...

That's interesting. I don't see Agito as an extension. There are very vague references which I think are to please the Kuuga fanboys.

I know that many people actually have developed complete arguments that show that Agito does not exactly follow Kuuga, but I can't find them right now.

Well, the Agito power that makes Exceed does become his own. The "kid" wanted to return to him. I would have liked Gills to progress on his own because he only progresses through the Agito power in fights.

Fine then I'll tentatively agree that kuuga and agito sort of apply.

Kuuga and Agito's powers are within them. Kuuga's healing power actually passes onto Godai's regular human form.

Calm your tits dude

:eyebrow:

Both Kivat's bite and Luna's power have the same issue that doesn't allow them to be used as evidence. We don't know what they are, at no point in either series do we learn what these abilities/functions serve. We don't know what role Kivat's bite fulfills in Kiva's henshin sequence.

Luna gives Double the ability to stretch his arm for a fact. We are not sure about his shots, be we definitely know that his arm can stretch and bend.

The way I always explained it is that Double's suit is merely a basic suit that allows the powers of individual gaia memories to be channeled through it so Luna having the power of "illusions" allows Double's left half to go all Mr. Fantastic. BUT since we don't have any concrete points to argue on this topic either this is also a useless piece of evidence since without more info from the source we don't know enough to really argue either of theses concepts

Double has a change in his body. It's like the Dopant changes. They don't gain suits. The Double transformation system allows him to use powers without becoming a Dopant. His anatomy changes. You see the black lines on Shotaro's face when he's transforming? His body is ready for the change. It's not a suit that allows him to split in half and lose his bones and stretch his arm.

 

[Khaiden]

Rider 1, Rider 2, V3, Skyrider, Kuuga, Agito.

All of these pretty much make it clear that their Rider form is their true self, their human form just being a mask now.
But I found there were many times in which the series implied it was more of an armor. Back in the day, the Double Riders would have an exposed neck, and then there's Hongo's transformation in his bike, seen without a helmet for a moment.
If we are to count SPIRITS I'm not sure what to say anymore.

What THE FIRST and THE NEXT showed us however, is that being a cyborg does not necessarily mean your Rider form can't be an external armor.
I think the same might apply to Kuuga and Agito... well, maybe not Agito.

tl;dr There's no definitive answer for many of the Riders.

My opinions, though:
[HIDE]#1: He has a new body, but his Rider form might not necessarily be the true form of that body.
#2: Ditto.
V3: Ditto.
Riderman: External suit powered by magical science.
X: Maybe a similar case to the first three Riders.
Amazon: New body. Not as biological as other Riders are, though.
Stronger: Same as the first three and X.
Skyrider: Ditto.
Super-1: It seems to be an external armor. But like many other Riders, it's likely the belt is part of his body (that's what generates the suit). Try to take off his helmet, though, and you won't be able to.
ZX: Once again, same as the first three.
BLACK: Unlike the previous examples, his series makes it more obvious his Rider form is his ''true'' form. I think it is a new body in this case. This seems to be the same for Shadow Moon.
BLACK RX: The show might not make it clear, but I think it's the same case.
Shin: New body. I have nothing to say here, really.
ZO: It seems to be a new body. ZO is in many ways a family-friendly version of Shin.
J: Man, I need to rewatch the movie. It might be either.
Kuuga: And yet again, same as the first three.
Agito: I believe it's a new body, same goes for Gills and Another.
G3-X: Armor. I have nothing to say here, really.
Ryuki Riders: Well, when they transform everything appears to be external, from the belt to the suit. I'd say it's armor.
Faiz: I'd say it's an armor. It's what the cyborg Riders might be, which is to say:
-They lost their humanity and gained a new body.
-This body, however, is not their Rider form. The Rider suit is just a way of bringing out their full potential.
Kaixa: Well, it's an armor. I felt like listing it separately because the system works a bit different.
Delta: It works with anybody, I'd say it's an armor too.
BOARD Riders: It's pretty clear they're armors.
Chalice: It's pretty clear it's a new body.
Oni Riders: Another mystery. At first you'd think they are new bodies, but then there's all that technology and how that's the only way they can reach their forms. I'm really not sure here, it can be either one. That oni armor that appeared in the Shuki episodes seems to imply their oni forms are another body (why would they need an armor like this?).
Kabuto Riders: Armor, it seems. Just like I said with Ryuki & co.
Den-O: It has to be an armor, the imagin can access it too.
Zeronos: Even with what happened with Zero form, this might be an armor too.
Kiva/Dark Kiva: I daresay, this is a new body. Although the way the Fangire King uses it even though he already has a Fangire form, it might be the same case as with Faiz. Could be either, though.
IXA: Pretty clear it's an armor.
Saga: Same as Kiva? Not reallly sure here.
Decade: Back in some old thread, I think NeonZ posted some fun facts about how Decade seemed to be intended to be a cyborg and in Ganbaride he says: ''This is my true form.'' There's that weird transformation at Movie War 2010 too. For now, I'll play it safe and say it's an armor.
If he is a cyborg however, well... see the first three and Faiz again.
Diend: Armor. I don't think Kaito is a kaizo-ningen, though he might as well be with how high he jumps.
W: Excluding Xtreme, I think it's an armor, even with what Philip is (see the first three Riders and Faiz). Now as for Xtreme, that one form might be a new body, which is the fusion of their two consciences; either that or it's an armor contaning both bodies.
Rest of W Riders: Pretty sure it's armor for all of them. I will go ahead and say the Dopants might be a new body, even when using belts.
OOO: Could be either, really. It depends a lot on the user.
Births: Armor. They make it clear with some nice shots.
Poseidon: He's worth a mention. Basically it's a lesser Greeed that at first depends on a user and so puts on the armor intended for Miharu. But later becomes it's own body, based on that armor... well, if it was an armor.
Aqua: Worth a mention too. You'd think he has a new body, but the belt is external. It's highly likely this is what I theorized with Faiz.
Fourze: Armor.
Meteor: Ditto.
Wizard: Could be either, really.[/HIDE]