Overtime Subs is no good


I understand... but that is where the human must come in and see -- out of the multiple means that word has -- which one works. It is sort of like the three versions of, "To".


Well, they have words to say, "Trouble", or , "Bad news", but they used the word, "Pinch". It would be obvious to anyone looking at a situation where this is used for it to mean "Trouble" or "In a bind". Smile Precure! is a solid example of this being used.

If you really want to watch the shows as they are in their original language, then your best option is to learn the language and not rely on subbers at all.

Nice point!
 

uoahauhguag you have triggered my pet peeve.

This is an example of a thing called wasei-eigo. Wasei-eigo basically means English words that have been absorbed into the Japanese language, but the thing you have to remember is that these words do not necessarily mean what they mean in English.

For example, Japanese has absorbed the word "mansion" to mean "apartment block". Or, one of my favourites, the word "viking" to mean "buffet" (the favorite explanation for this I've heard is they considered "smorgasbord" too difficult a word to absorb and... yeah.)

The thing you have to understand however is, that if they can absorb words and give them meanings that wildly divulgent, they can also give them meanings that are similar enough - but not quite the same - to cause problems.

In this case you can use the English 'pinch' where the Japanese would use their 'pinch' and it looks fine! The sentence works and you'd get the intended meaning, and it avoids annoying literalists like yourself. Great, right?

No, actually! The two words have very, very different subtexts. In Japanese, pinch can be used to mean seriously big problems. Like, we're about to die, or the world's about to end. In English, I'd go so far as to say modern usage is actually to trivialize one's predicament? "Pinch" in English is almost always used sarcastically, or failing that for minor predicaments.

You would not say "We're in a pinch." if you're about to be murdered by a horrible foul wolf-beast from the misery dimension. Maybe sarcastically, but never seriously, and as such it's one of those wasei-eigo terms you owe it to yourself and your audience to change, because while it is not "wrong", there are objectively better ways of doing it.

On a more general note, the thing you have to remember is that wording choices affect how your audience sees the work. If you use "pinch", while your audience might be able to logically work out that it has different connotations, they first have to be struck by those connotations to do that. Overliterality might allow the audience to come to the correct conclusion in the end, but the point is it totally skews the dramatic impact the line is meant to have, the way it's meant to hit you the very first time you see it. Every time you use a word that implies the wrong subtext, you're robbing the viewer of how that line is meant to make them feel.

And my translator's opinion is that that is the most goddamn awful thing you could ever do to a viewer. Japanese is not some sacred cow of language that we should be paying reverence to when watching a work. Language is, in this context, nothing more than a conduit, a medium - an accident of who made it and where. It can have beauty, certainly, it can have soul and flow and emotion. But none of these things are because of the specific language itself, and to my mind, trapping yourself in the notion that you have to be slavishly obedient to the rules and whims of another language is a great way to ruin the one you're trying to write in.

As was pointed out a few pages back, the golden rule of translation should always be that whatever you're translating could be someone's first exposure to the source language. You cannot assume they're familiar with its intricacies, cannot assume people know Japanese does crazy things with English words, cannot assume they know honorifics, cannot assume they have any vocabulary in it at all. Tokusatsu is not a medium, in my opinion, that one needs to be interested in Japanese culture to appreciate, and I don't think one should therefore force it down people's throats. It's primarily superhero stories. Sure, you get your Shinkengers, and your Hibikis, where Japanese culture is important - and there, you treat it with reverence because that is a facet of the story they're trying to tell.

But nothing about Go-Busters, say, is a story that can only be told through the language it's in, just as it is a story that does not have to be told through the medium it is. To bog people down in the nuances of the Japanese language or culture is, IMO, pure wankery in that context. It is to stand on a plinth and say "I know things! About the place this came from! Look at all the things I know!" It's arse. It doesn't improve or contribute to the understanding of the work, because nothing about the work was ever reliant on those things in the first place. The French language is more relevant to the writing of Go-Busters than the Japanese language is, to be honest, and I'm more than happy to treat it, hence, with more reverence.
 
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Japanese super heroes are not American super heroes -- they come from different cultures with different social concerns and values.

I disagree. I'm not sure I could disagree more. Japan imported its idea of the superhero directly from the US, much like the rest of the world. This is extremely well-documented. At heart, Japan's superhero is a direct descendant of what DC and Marvel were doing in the Silver and Bronze Ages, and respecting that goes a long way toward making Japanese superhero stories sound coherent in English. Japan's heroes are more likely to explore themes of interest to the Japanese people, certainly, but they do it in a way that is consistent with the genre's familiar underpinnings. To write a genre well, you must thoroughly understand it. That includes being aware of its history and origins.

I think stripping the linguistic tone robs from the source material.

Every translation will end up robbing the source material, at least a little. You have to pick and choose what is important to retain. You can never get every single connotation into the English script due to linguistic differences. The only question is how much you're stealing away, and why, and which characteristics. And these are the aspects that will make translations feel inherently different, even if they're translations of the same material. I'm sure if you did superheroes the way you wanted, there'd be some elements of the text you also left out-- because you didn't realize they were there, or didn't think they were important.

But why settle for "greatness" when you can strive for "super duper excellence!" :O_O:

It's not about settling, it's about time. It takes a lot of time to develop a really distinctive voice for a show, and to really suss out every single little connotations something has in Japanese. Kakuranger's translation style is the result of six months of discussion, just for an example. For the weekly Rider/Sentai subs, though, everything major really needs to be done in the first 24 to 48 hours after airing. That means a lot of times you can't dwell on a decision too long. You go with what feels right at the time and hope that pans out for you. If it doesn't, then you reassess next week.

If OT took much more time than it already does with new shows, then you'd get everything coming out on a release schedule as bad, or worse than, our Akibaranger release schedule. And I don't think anybody would put up with that for a new show that wasn't Akibaranger. Even Garo and Ginga have consistently better release schedules. In translation, there is a point where you must decide whether you want to create the ultimate super-perfect elegant rendering, or if you actually want to finish your work so people can watch it.
 

I definitely see where you're coming from, and you're right. But to use an example from this same thread about Japanese adoption of English concepts, look at Wasei-Eigo. "Pinch," "Mansion," and "Viking," have their roots in English, but each has developed a different semantic meaning when used in Japan. Same goes with American super heroes in relation to Japanese superheroes -- they have developed different semiotic meanings. They have the same roots, and an understanding of one might contribute to enhanced appreciation of the other -- but they certainly aren't the same.

About 40 years ago, Toei and Marvel Comics' superheroes may have been very nearly identical (didn't Marvel even co-develop Battle Fever J with Toei?). But over the decades, they've evolved down divergent paths. Something that was directly influenced by Stan and Jack's "The Avengers," over time, changed into its own beast based on environmental demands. This is true of American superheroes -- aside from showcasing characters' with the same (or similar) names and origins, modern superheroes are drastically different than the superheroes of yore. It's especially true of Japanese superheroes, which are even less directly tied to the heroes of the late 60s/early 70s, so they've diverged even further.

It's like Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Sure, at one point we had common ancestors -- but we grew into completely different species. We adapted to different environmental pressures, making us fundamentally different, even if we were derived from the same source.


True. I think my lack of practical application means I have a less informed view of the reality of translations. Something will always be lost. What I value might come at the sacrifice of an element someone else values.


Sorry I came off as flippant there. I was just joking around. Badly, it appears. :sweat: I love and respect your work, and I'm incredibly happy to have you around.

I guess the message is, "you can't please all of the people all of the time."
 
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Why are people using 'pinch' as there go to example of Wasei Eigo? Its not Wasei Eigo at all. People use the phrase "I'm in a pinch" all the time. Its the same as saying "in a jam", or "in a bind." For example, when people say something along the lines of "it could come in handy, in a pinch."
 


It's like you didn't even read what was said. :redface2:
 
My Reply to "Magenta"'s Post!


Hm, I get your point. But, if the viewer is watching closely enough; they should be able to tell from the context of what is going on. It is somewhat like how the Europeans used the phrase, "New Stage", as a synonym for the, “New World”, when they explored America. That writer was demonstrating flowery language.

I always thought that the phrase, “A pinch is a chance”, means that if there is even a little chance – there is hope. In both languages, “pinch”, can be a tiny measurement. “Pinch”, can have a lot of different meanings even if the actual word is not used a lot.


That is a valid point; it makes sense. But, you should be able to tell from anyone's inflection of how they want the line to carry over.


If it is in the original script, you put it in there.


That is a valid point, but I would assume that they would look up stuff about Japan before they watch a show. Not doing so is just robbing you of information. If "NAND NOR"'s mother was going to jump in blind to a show that she had never seen before and wanted to see what it was all about, she should ask him to explain it to her and it could be some extra bonding time between them. If someone comes into a story-driven show blind mid-season and is not willing to ask any nuances about the culture of the program they are watching -- they deserve to not know what is going on.

It is not a medium where it is vital, but it came from Japan. Anything from another culture should be researched and understood beforehand; it makes it more fun to watch and makes the viewer able to understand some terms. If I watch a show from Spain, I would research everything before I saw it. I would get more out of the experience.

...horrible foul wolf-beast from the misery dimension.

What are Wolfrun and the Bad End Kingdom?
 
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