Oedipus 3000
They call her one-eye
Now this is the **** I was talkin' about!! *Chews on more popcorn with a smile*
Manga Vs Western Comic
- Thread starter bigone
- Start date
Now this is the **** I was talkin' about!! *Chews on more popcorn with a smile*
Lynxara
Nice post!!
I wasn't talking about creating iconic characters, which isn't what comics is about. I detest the term "iconic"; all it really means is "old and highly marketable." I was talking about creating works of true transcendent art, a process far more complex than simply creating an exploitable property.
(Though as far "iconic" **** goes, show me the mangaka whose output is on par with Jack Kirby at his creative peak in terms of sheer number of memorable projects launched-- if you can. I think Go Nagai is as close as you get and even he falls short. Ishinomori doesn't hold a candle to Kirby.)
As far as serious comics goes, the Western indy comics scene kicks the **** out of the gekiga scene in terms of quality and originality of output. Consumer manga comics do not merit serious discussion anymore than Western superhero monthlies do; they are just as mired in thoughtless formula and mindless exploitation.
Talking about light novels and anime is totally irrelevant to a discussion of manga. The mangaka of my acquaintance would be insulted to see their work defended not with reference to great, transcendent manga like Glass Mask or Buddha.
No, to defend manga all you talk about a moderately thoughtful moe franchise that came from light novels, which sure as hell aren't manga, and Gundam, which is anime's poster child for selling out. Christ, Tomino's not even the best in his genre, let alone an artist. At least bring up Leiji Matsumoto, who was actually a mangaka. Even Monkey Punch would be more respectable!
All comics are the same? Please. Tell me how Fun Home is like The Boys is like Mouse Guard is like Walking Dead is like Asterios Polyp is like Sandman is like From Hell is like Bone is like Pogo is like Strangers In Paradise is like Grendel is like Nexus is like Dork Tower. Really. I'd love to see that rationale.
(Though as far "iconic" **** goes, show me the mangaka whose output is on par with Jack Kirby at his creative peak in terms of sheer number of memorable projects launched-- if you can. I think Go Nagai is as close as you get and even he falls short. Ishinomori doesn't hold a candle to Kirby.)
As far as serious comics goes, the Western indy comics scene kicks the **** out of the gekiga scene in terms of quality and originality of output. Consumer manga comics do not merit serious discussion anymore than Western superhero monthlies do; they are just as mired in thoughtless formula and mindless exploitation.
Talking about light novels and anime is totally irrelevant to a discussion of manga. The mangaka of my acquaintance would be insulted to see their work defended not with reference to great, transcendent manga like Glass Mask or Buddha.
No, to defend manga all you talk about a moderately thoughtful moe franchise that came from light novels, which sure as hell aren't manga, and Gundam, which is anime's poster child for selling out. Christ, Tomino's not even the best in his genre, let alone an artist. At least bring up Leiji Matsumoto, who was actually a mangaka. Even Monkey Punch would be more respectable!
All comics are the same? Please. Tell me how Fun Home is like The Boys is like Mouse Guard is like Walking Dead is like Asterios Polyp is like Sandman is like From Hell is like Bone is like Pogo is like Strangers In Paradise is like Grendel is like Nexus is like Dork Tower. Really. I'd love to see that rationale.
bigone
Senshi no Hikari
how may of Kribys creations have had shows and Movies made for for them
im saying what has had a greater popular impact i there nation Of origin in the last 25 years Manga in Japan or comics in the us that is what im asking
Lynxara
Nice post!!
Basically all of them at this point. He created or co-created basically all of the classic Marvel characters, he created the entire genre of romance comics (which was extremely popular in the US through the early 60s), he did extremely influential work in Westerns, crime comics, and adventure comics. He also created a substantial number of characters for DC, most importantly the New Gods (who appear regularly in DC animated productions).
Make no mistake, Kirby was not as respected during his lifetime as Nagai or Ishinomori or Tezuka, largely for cultural reasons. America didn't take comics seriously until after Kirby did most of his trailblazing foundational work in the medium. Kirby's sheer creative output is completely astounding, though. American comics as they exist now are bastardizations of Kirby as surely as Shounen Jump tripe bastardizes Tezuka.
These days, Kirby is often compared directly to Tezuka and called the King of Comics. I feel that name is merited.
That's a curiously irrelevant question. Comics in the US were frowned upon in the 40s for basically racist reasons; many of the creators were inner city, poor, and of ethnic origin. Kirby was Jewish back when Jews tended to be despised the way Hispanics often are now. Most of the great creators of that era were poor, Jewish or Irish, and largely self-taught.
Manga is a larger element of day-to-day life in Japan, sure. The Japanese read comics about everything, from history to on-the-job training. That doesn't mean Japan's comics are better or more important, it just means Japanese people really like comics. There's also a major Japanese market for the work of American creators like Mike Mignola.
Americans on the whole don't love comics as much as other mediums, no, but to say that's because the comics are bad is fatuous. I would say it's just that America is more of a watching society than a reading society; Japan loves reading so much they print novelists' pictures on their money. America is the home of Hollywood and the birthplace of animation.
Now I find it interesting that you question the "cultural impact" of comics in the West just as Watchmen becomes one of the best-selling novels of all time, just as Marvel begins producing its own unbroken string of feature films, just as DC is being more tightly integrated into Warner Bros's film division, just as art-comic based films like Persepolis and American Splendor are having huge cultural impact.
Perhaps for a long time American comics lingered behind their Japanese counterparts, but they're catching up. Scott Pilgrim and MegaTokyo outsell most actual translated manga in the US, with a few exceptions (sup Naruto). In the next few decades, I think we'll see America become a country that loves the visual impact of comics far more openly than it ever has before.
Smilodon
Friendship and the Cosmos.
I like Dragon Ball, and Astro Boy, and all those old Tezuka Osama manga. Those are classics.
You really can't compare both things in my opinion, because they are just so different, and the various cultural differences between the Japanese and Americans make the incomparable.
It's like comparing like the orignal Captain America to Osamu Tezuka's Astro Boy. They are so different, its kinda incomparable.
You really can't compare both things in my opinion, because they are just so different, and the various cultural differences between the Japanese and Americans make the incomparable.
It's like comparing like the orignal Captain America to Osamu Tezuka's Astro Boy. They are so different, its kinda incomparable.
bigone
Senshi no Hikari
yeah but theres been unbroken year on year release of Created at First by Ishinomori for Over 30 years that Being super sentai you say unbroken string of movies has there been a marvel or DC Tv Show Every year for over 30 years no
Plus for the manga ka argument what about Miyazaki i read alot of Both Comics and manga read for example the Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind manga and that is art and it tells a powerful story
and most Comic based movies and Huge Cannon issues the last X men one for instance at least the Azumi Movies stayed true to the manga and So did 20th Century boys so when directors of western Comic movies learn to Stick to cannon the yes the movie will be more then just Good
FYI i a cannon Junkie i hate Stuff that pulls from cannon
FYI i happen to be Japanese
Plus for the manga ka argument what about Miyazaki i read alot of Both Comics and manga read for example the Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind manga and that is art and it tells a powerful story
and most Comic based movies and Huge Cannon issues the last X men one for instance at least the Azumi Movies stayed true to the manga and So did 20th Century boys so when directors of western Comic movies learn to Stick to cannon the yes the movie will be more then just Good
FYI i a cannon Junkie i hate Stuff that pulls from cannon
FYI i happen to be Japanese
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Oedipus 3000
They call her one-eye
Can I throw my two cents in here on your guys argument (though I am seriously enjoying the yelling 
)
Comparing the Manga that's available here in the states to the entire market of American comics is totally faulted since the bulk of the manga which is shipped over here is just what's deemed popular, not artistic and wonderful in multiple levels, while the whole of the western market is within our easy grasp. With the western market we can delve into the creeks and cracks and find the cerebral works, while with manga we're just handed whatever sold the most (which never equals greatness.) The Gekiga, Doushinji's and more personal work will and probably never be brought over to America.
You're basically comparing intimate self expressions to a pretty kick-ass story the guy thought up. If I right now asked you "which ones better: One piece or Maus?" you'd probably look at me as a retard and wanna punch me in the face. Honestly, when comparing comics and manga, my mind went straight towards Shonen jump vs Marvel Comics and that's where my opinion came from and that's the only decent way you can possibly have a intelligent conversation based upon it.
but keep going though, I love these east vs west arguments *picks up popcorn and starts munching again*
)Comparing the Manga that's available here in the states to the entire market of American comics is totally faulted since the bulk of the manga which is shipped over here is just what's deemed popular, not artistic and wonderful in multiple levels, while the whole of the western market is within our easy grasp. With the western market we can delve into the creeks and cracks and find the cerebral works, while with manga we're just handed whatever sold the most (which never equals greatness.) The Gekiga, Doushinji's and more personal work will and probably never be brought over to America.
You're basically comparing intimate self expressions to a pretty kick-ass story the guy thought up. If I right now asked you "which ones better: One piece or Maus?" you'd probably look at me as a retard and wanna punch me in the face. Honestly, when comparing comics and manga, my mind went straight towards Shonen jump vs Marvel Comics and that's where my opinion came from and that's the only decent way you can possibly have a intelligent conversation based upon it.
but keep going though, I love these east vs west arguments *picks up popcorn and starts munching again*
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Skiks
Member
There has been a big string of comic shows and movies in recent memory. Is this debate about quality or quantity? Sure Manga and anime can last a pretty long time but comics have stronger staying power if you want to go there. I mean look at batman or superman.
Brave and the Bold far surpasses the quality of a hell of a lot of animes made for kids or even adults. So does Spectacular Spider-man. All these "Iconic series" have shown up consitently and shaped our idea of super heroes for the longest time. You can't say anime and manga influences is bigger then comic influences. No anime has had a movie that released worldwide for the box office over seas within the same month or so.
This how about those canon issues eh? Well the fact is each adaption of comic works is more like a different interpretation of a character and will never be 100% the same.
Brave and the Bold far surpasses the quality of a hell of a lot of animes made for kids or even adults. So does Spectacular Spider-man. All these "Iconic series" have shown up consitently and shaped our idea of super heroes for the longest time. You can't say anime and manga influences is bigger then comic influences. No anime has had a movie that released worldwide for the box office over seas within the same month or so.
This how about those canon issues eh? Well the fact is each adaption of comic works is more like a different interpretation of a character and will never be 100% the same.
bigone
Senshi no Hikari
What has had the most Direct impact on Domestic Popular Culture Manga in Japan or Comics in the us Minus the main Super Heros ie for Dc superman for marvel spiderman The X Men and so uf u ask a non Comic reader Who Booster Gold is who Martian Manhunter is or Who Super Boy Prime you get sideways look
but say is you ask a teenger in Japan Who Amuro Rei is they will Know or say
Who Tsukino Usagi is They wiil Know and i Dont mean people who were teenagers say 5 to 10 years ago[when i was one] mean now
the term Otaku still has a stigma on it but Otaku are not Embarrassed to call themselves one now. But Most Comic fans are Embarrassed to Admit they Still Read Comics cause they are Stigmatised as Childish the Whole Post Knght and Watchman Era Try to Remove that Stigma but it Pretty Much Stopped Newer Younger fans From Getting in to the Medium
There in Lies the Issue Of why Comics Will never Be as Big in The west as Manga is in The East Its Not the Whole The Us and UK are Nations of Watchers rather Readers That Bull and You Know it its the Solid fact that the industry is Still Trying get back to its Old Golden age Greatness But the revolution in the the Industry That Moore and Miller Caused Still reverberates.
one of main Problems is How the Origin Stories of Some Bigger Name Heros Have Changed So much or are not Set ie Wonder Women and Donna Troy
Need i say more
at least origin of stories Batman and Superman are set
im more of a DC fan Than Marvel
im
but say is you ask a teenger in Japan Who Amuro Rei is they will Know or say
Who Tsukino Usagi is They wiil Know and i Dont mean people who were teenagers say 5 to 10 years ago[when i was one] mean now
the term Otaku still has a stigma on it but Otaku are not Embarrassed to call themselves one now. But Most Comic fans are Embarrassed to Admit they Still Read Comics cause they are Stigmatised as Childish the Whole Post Knght and Watchman Era Try to Remove that Stigma but it Pretty Much Stopped Newer Younger fans From Getting in to the Medium
There in Lies the Issue Of why Comics Will never Be as Big in The west as Manga is in The East Its Not the Whole The Us and UK are Nations of Watchers rather Readers That Bull and You Know it its the Solid fact that the industry is Still Trying get back to its Old Golden age Greatness But the revolution in the the Industry That Moore and Miller Caused Still reverberates.
one of main Problems is How the Origin Stories of Some Bigger Name Heros Have Changed So much or are not Set ie Wonder Women and Donna Troy
Need i say more
at least origin of stories Batman and Superman are set
im more of a DC fan Than Marvel
im
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