Kamen Rider Gaim - Lock 02 "Deathblow! Pineapple Kick!"

[hide]I mean heck, the author goes to extra efforts just to say "Yes, this has a happy ending!"[/hide]

Sir...that is a show about a group of girls that were taken away from their parents, cybernetically altered, and given a timer on which to live. Then they are forced to train endlessly and kill people for the praise of their brainwashing handlers.

I don't care how happy the ending is. That is a dark show.
 
Can you provide an example of a show which contains character death and isn't dark? Doesn't have to be Toku, just anything. I'm curious because I want to agree with you but I can't think of any examples that fit.

I want to say DBZ, but DBZ is like american superhero comics...death doesn't really mean much.

There are deaths in One Piece, at least a few and that show is lighthearted goofy adventure time in most cases.
 
Sir...that is a show about a group of girls that were taken away from their parents

The only parents we know of in the story are Henrietta's, Angelica's and maybe Triela's and, I don't see how they were "taken away" considering:
[hide]Henrietta's were murdered, Angie's tried to kill her and Triela might just possibly be hallucinating that Dr. Rachelle Belleut is her mother.[/hide]

Then they are forced to [..] kill people for the praise of their brainwashing handlers.
The only cyborg that actively wanted praise was Rico and maybe Angelica.
Claes didn't have a handler.
Henrietta didn't seem to need praise a ton of the time as long as her Signore Jose was happy.
Triela & Petrushka were tough enough to get along without it.
And all Elsa de Sica wanted was just her handler to notice her (aside from being regarded as just some thing that's taking up space) before she even got started on being praised.

I don't care how happy the ending is. That is a dark show.
I dunno, I'm just thinking on how Lynxara said on a recent HJU Radio where a "dark" show is defined by a show having no hope whatsoever; and, what is the last panel in the story?
 
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My default thought for "story where lots of people die and it's not dark" is Gunbuster. In Gunbuster, the heroes are helpless to save countless people, time dilation rips them apart from each other, and in the end the heroes lose all contact with the very world they tried to save. But at the end, a new world welcomes them back, and they know it all mattered. And also Gunbuster itself is friggin' sweet.
 
I dunno, I'm just thinking on how Lynxara said on a recent HJU Radio where a "dark" show is defined by a show having no hope whatsoever; and, what is the last panel in the story?

I was generalizing with my description of the show for space and time's sake. I've seen it and the characters to which you refer specifically are the components of my generalizations that I previously referred to.

I don't agree that hope is what determines a show's tone. And "dark" is a tone. Gunslinger Girls is depressing and the atmosphere in the show is oppressive. The girls are presented as being trapped in a world of death and shady morality. It makes you feel down to watch that show (or at least, it did for me). THAT is what makes it dark, to my estimation.

My default thought for "story where lots of people die and it's not dark" is Gunbuster.

I'll have to check that out.


Ah now there's a terrific example. And if we're doing this Mythbusters style where one example disproves the letter of the myth, then this one is busted. I'm glad too, because it sounded like that should be the case but I just couldn't think of any examples at the time.

I found it particularly tricky because the statement specified "character death", which is not the same as bystander death. And does villain death count? Because there are tons of shows with villain death that I wouldn't consider dark.
 
It makes you feel down to watch that show (or at least, it did for me). THAT is what makes it dark, to my estimation.

This seems to confuse "dark" with "depressing" or "bleak". I do agree that tone can affect whether or not something is dark, but I don't think it can be the sole determining factor. There's a lot of Mawaru Penguindrum I found really depressing to watch because it hit home pretty hard, and in many ways it's a very bleak fictional universe. But I don't think it could be fairly called "dark" in any way. Disturbing, perhaps, but there's moments of joy sprinkled through the show, and while the ending is sorrowful it has a certain happy quality. It's certainly not a dark story, just one that explores some disturbing themes.

Like... there's a comic called Crossed (I don't recommend it) that's extremely dark, but doesn't really have an oppressive atmosphere because it's usually written in the spirit of an exploitation movie. It's meant to shock, sicken, and titillate, but not to oppress. It's more a parade of the grotesque. Crossed is relentlessly, unquestionably dark, though, because it's about a universe where humanity has no future, no protagonist can possibly accomplish very much, and senseless cruelty lurks around every corner. To read it is only to see horrible things happen without end.

So upon some thought, I think hope is important because it indicates whether or not the protagonists have any real power to address their situation, and turn an oppressive status quo into a beneficial one. I think that's why, for me, whether or not an ending is happy depends on whether or not characters accomplish goals or got something they wanted. In a truly dark story, the protagonists don't have the power to change anything, and so the narrative will necessarily demand their failure. And the protagonist's failure will often have its own horrible consequences.

So what would save Transformers from being dark, for example, is that nine times out of ten the protagonists will still get to do something that matters and achieve some sort of meaningful goal. Any deaths that happen along the way are very sad, but they aren't testaments to the futility of trying to do anything. And I think dark storytelling must contain a certain element of nihilism. The protagonists must be helpless to do the things that any reasonable person in their position would want to do. To paraphrase 1984, a dark story is one where a boot is smashing a human face forever.
 
Gunslinger Girls is depressing [...] It makes you feel down to watch that show

(tagged for size, rather than spoilers)

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