Kamen Rider Gaim Ep 23 - "Now Let's Go! Kachidoki Arms!"

[Shynilyte]

But that, again, hinges on the plot revelation, which hinges on the viewers caring enough about Yuuya and Kouta. Neither of which have been fulfilled.

None of it hinges on caring about Yuuya. As someone already pointed out, Yuuya's role is to show that Kouta "killed" an innocent person. Kouta would have had the same reaction had it been anybody.

 

[Herman the German]

What I really wanna know is what the f*ck Sagara actually IS to be able to convert Earth fruit into Lockseeds like that.

 

[Shougo B'Stard]

I'm sorry, but this "You weren't supposed to care about Yuuya, he wasn't important" stuff is total bull. Yuuya WAS supposed to be important to Kouta, and the show really dropped the ball on how they resolved the situation.

Kouta's someone who cried over and got hung up on Hase's death, even though Hase meant nothing to any of the characters in the show (and meant nothing to the audience, either, so his death was a stupid thing to hang the show's first dramatic hook on, IMO). Hase meant less to the show overall, even if he had more screen-time than Yuuya, and they're STILL mentioning the guy like he was someone!

Yuuya was Kouta's friend, Kouta's superior. Yuuya was meant to be the Rider that Kouta is. That his friend was not only his first kill, but a kill he was absolutely giddy about because of his new bitchin' orange samurai powers, should have WRECKED Kouta. He should have been upset, he should have been pissed. What do we get instead? "That was Yuuya? No way! Now, leave me to stare thoughtfully into Gorou-chan's wax fruit for a second. Hmm... Well, **** happens. Yo, check out my Bandai haul!"

I mean, I've been enjoying Gaim -- a lot -- and I really like the Kouta character, but the show's far from perfect, and I think this is something it really got wrong. It wasn't a satisfying conclusion at all. You don't lay that foundation down, with all of the "Ooh, how's this going to play out!?!" scenes with Micchi lying to Kouta the whole time, just to brush it off because Bandai wants to bring in a new toy. (A lot of good Kachidoki did, by the way. All of Yggdrasil's spotlight lasers were restored by the time Tokkyuger VS Gaim took place! So, our hero's also robbed of his small victory, too.)

 

[NeonZ]

You are arguing within the compounds of the narrative, not its execution. Thus I cannot answer, because its not the question that has anything to do with what I'm saying.

No, I'm talking about its execution. The execution would be problematic if it didn't fit within the context of the narrative, but it did, so I don't see the problem.

In some of Urobuchi's anime work, characters give large speeches about their ideals and role in a way that's clearly being done for the audience, and has no real in universe justification. Here, he has managed to avoid that so far. So, I just can't agree that he's treating the characters as pieces in this case. Their actions fit the context of the preestablished story, and aren't only done to set up later plots.

You seem to be conviced this is the only way for the story to handle Yuuya, but its really not.

It's the only way to handle him while keeping him as basically a footnote. Anything else would need to actually devote more time and focus on his character. But, when you get to that point, you're basically complaining about the show not doing something, rather than problems with what it actually did, and that's a slippery slope.

(A lot of good Kachidoki did, by the way. All of Yggdrasil's spotlight lasers were restored by the time Tokkyuger VS Gaim took place! So, our hero's also robbed of his small victory, too.)

The tower isn't moving anymore though, so it's probably still broken. They just fixed the exterior destruction.

Yuuya was Kouta's friend, Kouta's superior. Yuuya was meant to be the Rider that Kouta is. That his friend was not only his first kill, but a kill he was absolutely giddy about because of his new bitchin' orange samurai powers, should have WRECKED Kouta. He should have been upset, he should have been pissed. What do we get instead?

Kouta stopped everything he was attempting to do and was out of it during most of this episode, until DJ Sagara woke him up, which was already near the ending. We just didn't have to watch a bunch of flashbacks and angst about someone the viewers couldn't really care about, with the script mostly continuing the conflict between Kouta and Zangetsu from last week, about being able to fight without sacrifices.

Hase's death received a very dramatic scene, after that Kouta exploded in fury, but by the next scene, when he was meeting Ryoma, he already had recovered his self control. So, it didn't shook him nearly as much, just had more emotional/dramatic scenes since he was an actual character.

 

[Guardian07]

This would be fine. Except this was already done. With Lemon Energy.

Back then, Sagara was testing Kouta, and he then gave him Lemon Energy and the card key because he liked what he saw. This time, it was Sagara almost pointedly driving Kouta back into the fight, after he was all but ready to stop. Also, we finally got confirmation that Sagara is not really human. Instead of the mystery being redone, it's being built up.

Even if there is a payoff, as a weekly show it is absolutely tedious to watch.

I dunno about tedious, I myself am enjoying the wait and the anticipation.

Decent reasoning, but I can't help but to feel this isn't what the writing is saying. "Consciously or sub-consciously, he's aware that the Inves they all had been fighting are all people" is something that we are only left to assume, rather than something that the text is doing anything to indicate so.

Well, we had the scene back when Takatora showed him the ruins, where he hesitated to fight the Inves that attacked them, knowing that they were once people.

But that, again, hinges on the plot revelation, which hinges on the viewers caring enough about Yuuya and Kouta. Neither of which have been fulfilled.

You may not care about Kouta, but I cared about him almost from day one. I care about his ordeals, and I care about his journey and his growth. And I care about Yuuya because Kouta cared about him.

 

[Shynilyte]

(A lot of good Kachidoki did, by the way. All of Yggdrasil's spotlight lasers were restored by the time Tokkyuger VS Gaim took place! So, our hero's also robbed of his small victory, too.)

Is the crossover actually set that soon after episode 23? Kaito was still trying to deal with the Overlord in 23 and it looks like he's still not done by 24, so him randomly popping in to help and acting as if he needed to find something to do looks out of place, timing-wise.

 

[LaZerwolfX]

nor what LazerWolf thinks the subtext is

Please try not to make assumptions about what I think in the future. :thumbs:

It's also good to know you get along with the new Kingranger just as well!

Oh I know, right? Its uncanny.

Is the crossover actually set that soon after episode 23? Kaito was still trying to deal with the Overlord in 23 and it looks like he's still not done by 24, so him randomly popping in to help and acting as if he needed to find something to do looks out of place, timing-wise.

The crossover isn't cannon. At least not with Gaim.

 

[Black Fang]

Gaim 23:

- I really like how the Overlords have their own language. It's been a long time since we've had that in Rider.

- 19:11 Micchi's actor and Hiroko Sato make that same face when emoting that feeling.

- Zangetsu ambush!

- The Scalar Tower reminds me of Hugo Strange's tower in Arkham City.

- "Kamen Rider Gaim is fiction." Yes... because someone out there is thinking it's real? I don't think even kids would be fooled.

Then again, I do recall thinking as a kid that Austin St. John's name actually was Jason >>

- The Shinkenger-Decade crossover should have been out-of-continuity like this Toqger-Gaim thing.

 

[lazycoconut]

I don't know what to make of the whole thing with Kouta's reaction to Yuuya. It's still playing out (for instance, next week in the promo he's telling Mai about it) and he was quite obviously devastated when he found out. On the other hand his reaction to Hase seemed strange? I understand why he'd respond that way to seeing the guy murdered in front of his eyes, and why he'd care about a fellow Beat Rider. But Hase certainly wasn't his friend. Hase was a thug and bully who didn't care about Kouta and did things that Kouta couldn't condone (like blatantly attacking a near-unconscious Kaito for his Lock Seed.) Kouta tends to think the best of people and trusts more easily than he should, so I can sort of see why he still considers Hase his friend ... but then did they ever really talk to each other outside of battle?