Japan Hero Era vs. HJU Era - Are Things Better or Worse?

[MrMonk]

I wouldn't say it's very much like video games because there have always been individual subgenres and formats of video games that give people numerous options just by the virtue of existing, whereas Toku has always been (for the most part) limited to the Big 3. I also don't think that the reason fans used to be so enthused and willing to watch anything and everything they could get their hands on was just because there wasn't any other choice; I think around that time, when the internet began making clips, tapes, VCDs, etc. more accessible, we were all experiencing a kind of revolution together, and even people who had been Toku fans for a long time were just then beginning to have a place to talk about it and be exposed to the new stuff together. I would go as far as to say there wasn't a Toku "fandom" before Japan Hero and Xenorama and places like that. Those sites brought together fans that were just happy to be able to discuss their obscure interests with others, and nobody chose sides or felt the need to discourage others from digging what they dug. I mean, in a fandom as limited and as underground as non-domestic Tokusatsu, do we really have a lot of right to be belittling the tastes of others? There was some Heisei hate on Japan Hero, but nothing like the era and genre wars that take place here now. The Toku fandom isn't unlike a lot of other niche interests that I've been a part of over the years: martial arts, then skateboarding, then music, then health and fitness, then disciplines like parkour and freerunning. First, it's all about people who share a common love of the art, then more and more people catch on and popularize certain aspects and eventually a watered-down caricature of the original concept appears in every pop culture outlet imagineable until the majority of fans are casual lovers of the mainstream and a lot of what made the art popular to its original fanbase is lost as it grows into something bigger than it was intended to be. It's almost a paradox, in a way--the larger the Toku fandom grows, the more it loses what made it special to begin with.

This isn't a popularity contest, it's a comparison of the characteristics of the fandom in terms of the eras in which certain forums were/are popular. Nobody is whining or complaining but merely stating the differences they've seen over the years, which is funny, because the majority of the people posting in this thread so far have said they weren't even around during the Japan Hero era. Anybody preaching about whiners or trying to defend HJU's honor has missed the point.

I was around during the Japan Hero era.

In the end your issues, as you rightly point out, as the product of the loss of your niche status. The early adopters feel that they are closer to the 'spirit' of whatever product they consume. I counter this is not the case, as the point of any product is to be enjoyed by a wider audience myself. I'm partially guilty of this myself, for instance: I view the Wii as a lesser console in some respects. But it's not. More people, young and old are playing games than ever before. That's the point. Get more people in. Capitalize upon the success. You don't get that by sneering at the casuals and mainstream. And you don't get it by forcing them to like what you like.

Tokusatsu is wide. I personally have never preferred Sentai, and in ones I do watch, I tend to skip over the Big Robo fights. I acknowledge the craft and reverence inherent in Ultraman series, but have yet to find one that I've really enjoyed. I disliked Cutie Honey and Sailor Moon. I enjoyed Garo and Keitai Sousokan. I felt Armor Hero was a bit of a homage that never really grew beyond its roots. I like some Godzilla, but some of the old stuff like Daimajin is completely miss for me. I can't say I enjoy all of the Showa Era shows, it's hit or miss for me.

Expecting someone who's first show was say, Den-O, to enjoy Jetman or Garo is silly. They're not even anywhere near the same type of stories. I feel sometimes those of us who've been around for awhile are too attached to tokusatsu as a whole, whereas new people tend to go with shows they like, since more is available. The same happened in anime. Back in the day, everyone had seen Dragon Ball Z, Gundam Wing, Fushigi Yuugi, and Evangelion, because that's what we had to work with. Even farther back: Dominion Tank Police, Bubblegum Crisis, Urusei Yatsura, and Ranma 1/2. Again, it was all we had.

Things aren't the same.

Personally, I think that's a good thing.

 

[Bolt]

I don't attribute my enjoyment of the fandom to any kind of niche status at all, and I'm honest enough with myself to enjoy the things I like whether nobody likes them or everybody likes them, but increased popularity, especially casual popularity (i.e. people who only get on here to leech from our Downloads board or watch one Kamen Rider episode a week without giving anything else a chance) is what I would say is to blame for a more divided, less appreciative fandom. And that just goes with the growth in popularity, like FQ said. If I only wanted to like things that nobody else liked, I'd be on some super-obscure Peruvian underground filmmaking forum right now drinking absinthe out of a sippy cup in a Bananarama t-shirt. I don't care how popular Toku gets, I'm past the point of no return and I'm a fan for life. But you can't deny that the fandom has taken on more than its fair share of the kind of greedy, scrutinizing new-age fans that think they're entitled to everything in the past few years. Notice that I never definitively said which era I prefer, because I've gotten a lot of kicks out of every era of the Toku fandom I've been able to be a part of. However, like I said before, this thread isn't about shitting on either of the two golden ages or choosing a favorite, but comparing what made the fandoms stand out during both periods. I don't think things have been better or worse during either era, there have just been different sets of pros and cons.

 

[Undrave]

There was some Heisei hate on Japan Hero, but nothing like the era and genre wars that take place here now.

Erhm...what?! :sly: Did I miss a flame war somewhere?

This isn't a popularity contest, it's a comparison of the characteristics of the fandom in terms of the eras in which certain forums were/are popular. Nobody is whining or complaining but merely stating the differences they've seen over the years, which is funny, because the majority of the people posting in this thread so far have said they weren't even around during the Japan Hero era. Anybody preaching about whiners or trying to defend HJU's honor has missed the point.

Really now? You're gonna tell me that article isn't a load of 'It changed now it sucks!' elitism from an older fan? Its clear to me that its trying to belittle folks like me who followed no more than a handful of shows and just showed up recently.

You might not be whining but you bemoan the fact that times changed, your discourse is clearly slanted to imply that the old days weren't just different, they were better.

I don't see how I missed the point.

It changed, now its different. That's the point. And maybe you don't see the way that article is judging both eras but I see it and I disagree with the idea. Maybe mostly out of ignorance...but in the end I don't care.

Frankly Bolt you're always doing things like this, inventing trouble in the fandom or with admins here, painting a darker picture than what I see in front of me... its really bothering me.

I don't see the kind of bashing you seems to think exists. Who are those folks discouraging other from opening their horizon? All I'm seeing is people talking about shows then enjoy, telling which they didn't and why... You're making this all way more complicated than it is.

Oh and try not to bombard us with such wall of text...makes some paragraphs for pete sake!

 

[Ragna "D" BloodEdge]

Let me say this about the board: I wasn't here for the old days, but what I can see here is less of a Forum and more of a family. These people are like my brothers and sisters, this place is like no other forum I've ever been on before. I love you guys. So yeah, I dunno how it used to be, but I can't imagine it being better than this.

 

[scikaiju]

I'm not seeing where Bolt's is trying to make trouble, or inventing trouble as you put it, in any of his posts in this thread. He's putting in his opinion as a person who's seen both eras.

Now as a person who's seen both eras myself, I find myself agree with both sides of the discussion here. I've seen plenty of guys come in and basically say "The old stuff sucks the new stuff is better" and "The new stuff sucks the old stuff is better" especially when have things became more readily available. I've seen people dickride a particular franchise proclaiming it's virtue and bash all the rest it.

I've also seen a lot of the thoughtful posts of this era and people willing to give a different era or franchise a chance to impress them and ask for examples they might like. Like with any group you god your good, you got your bad and you got your complete and total pricks It's a risk you have to take when anything that get's bigger.

 

[MrMonk]

I don't attribute my enjoyment of the fandom to any kind of niche status at all, and I'm honest enough with myself to enjoy the things I like whether nobody likes them or everybody likes them, but increased popularity, especially casual popularity (i.e. people who only get on here to leech from our Downloads board or watch one Kamen Rider episode a week without giving anything else a chance) is what I would say is to blame for a more divided, less appreciative fandom. And that just goes with the growth in popularity, like FQ said. If I only wanted to like things that nobody else liked, I'd be on some super-obscure Peruvian underground filmmaking forum right now drinking absinthe out of a sippy cup in a Bananarama t-shirt. I don't care how popular Toku gets, I'm past the point of no return and I'm a fan for life. But you can't deny that the fandom has taken on more than its fair share of the kind of greedy, scrutinizing new-age fans that think they're entitled to everything in the past few years. Notice that I never definitively said which era I prefer, because I've gotten a lot of kicks out of every era of the Toku fandom I've been able to be a part of. However, like I said before, this thread isn't about shitting on either of the two golden ages or choosing a favorite, but comparing what made the fandoms stand out during both periods. I don't think things have been better or worse during either era, there have just been different sets of pros and cons.

I never said your enjoyment was attributed solely to the 'nicheness' of whatever you're taking a part of, but it's normal for people to feel better about themselves for being early adopters of well... anything. Add in nostalgia and we tend to think that things were better back when it just a few in one corner of the world.

But again, the purpose of most creations is to be enjoyed by the most people possible. And if fandom is divided, it's only because people are different. As I said in my previous post, back in the day in anime EVERYONE had at least seen certain shows, because that's all we had. These days, you have Bleach/Naruto/One Piece fans, NANA fans, Zetsubou Sensei fans, etc. The fandom is wider, they don't have to agree on the same things. Toku is somewhat getting there. Some watch Kamen Rider, some watch sentai, some watch Power Rangers, some watch j-drama, some watch Ultraman, etc. There's crossover in everybody.

And those who only watch one thing? What's more likely to pull them into watching others?

'You watch that? Why? It was much better back in the day. They've sold out now.'

or

'I'm glad you enjoyed that. If you liked that, you might like this as well. It's a little older, but I think it accomplishes the same thing a bit better.'

I find we have, and have always had, too much of the former.

 

[ForeverRed]

~B-Money~ sounds familiar and I know it's Jedibmoney.

Why can't he stop forcing most of us to watch Ultraman? They have a right to whatever they want.

Most of you guys know me that used to be a member of Classic Hero (my username was Shinkenger and it went down. Everything was gone), now changed to Japan Hero (now, ForeverRed). I liked it and all of this suddenly, I was defending someone and got banned from there.

Also, I asked Jeff to give me another chance to be the member of JapanHero. He did gave me another chance. ^_^


Anyway, I'm trying to get into the old Sentai, Kamen Rider and Ultraman series but it's hard to watch without English subtitles, which doesn't mean I hate them.

The truth is that I actually enjoy any Sentai from 90s and 20s.

I'm trying my best what I can do. :thumbs:

 

[NathanTZ]

Wasn't around for Japan Hero-era (too busy being a virtual pro-wrestler and playing World of Darkness), but came in fairly recent. Even in my little bit of time being an active member (my idea of active anyways) of this fandom, I have seen this rise in casual fans being unappreciative of shows from the past or disregarding an entire series, company, what have you. But when B-Money said something about pushing, I didn't care for it. Maybe because I made the decision on my own to explore the older stuff, subtitled or raw, and guess what? I fell in love. JAKQ, Amazon, KAIKETSU ZUBAT! These are just examples of the awesome that some fans deprive themselves of. I say if they want to not enjoy some of the awesome, let them I'll still be loving it.

 

[Wing Saber]

As much as I love the Showa Era, I would still give anything from the Heisei Era a chance. It's because times change, people's interests are different, and whatever worked 30 or 40 years ago may not work today. That's why a product has to evolve, even if it means going outside the box.

 

[Lynxara]

I was around for the Japan Hero era and, actually, the era of fandom before it. The fandom has improved so much since then that it's not even funny. More shows are being subbed regularly by more groups than ever before.

Back in the HJU days we had to rely on terrible HKs to see a series. Before that, someone's synopsis and tiny crappy pics on a Geocities page. Now even the lousiest W speedsub is like a hundred times better than, say, the HK set that introduced me to Kuuga.

The HJU era is good. Growth in any fandom is good. It leads to more and better viewing options for fans.

People like the Toei stuff that's easy to like, that's fine. Fans can branch out into Ultraman, indie projects, old Showa classics, films, the girls' tokusatsu, what have you, whenever they're ready. If they don't want to branch out, that's fine too. What's important is that so much stuff now is around for people to even try.