I think I'm having a weird mid-life break down...

I didnt realise the new rider was out, after watching that trailer not really impressed, I skipped Wizard cause the first few eps did nothing for me, I'll give it a go anyways!

Also for the record I'm a shin fan! that movie was awesome, I didn't take it seriously but I loved the horror element it gave to it!
 
It hasn't been in the show yet. Seriously. Urobuchi went out of his way to do two "generic" episodes to introduce Gaim, and didn't bother to put a bike in either of them. That speaks volumes about how far Heisei Rider has drifted from the franchise's roots.

Didn't Kuuga wait four episodes to introduce Trychaser 2000? Or are we counting Godai's normal bike? In which case, Kota's delivery bike sort of counts... at least he's riding something and not running everywhere. Take that for what it's worth.
 
I think you're confusing "like" with "not hate." Glancing at it and going, "That's cool" is a whole different bag than looking at the thing every week for a year, or buying a toy of it, or buying all the toys of it. That's the test that Kamen Rider design work has to pass-- will you like it just as much or more after a year? Two years? Five years?

And for the show's purposes: will the design make for a cool suit, or one that begins rapidly falling apart as the weeks pass, because the kibble just can't withstand the pressures of shooting? Will there be stuff worked into the suit design that looked okay on 2D, but looks like hot garbage in front of the camera because the materials to realize the artist's concept just don't exist yet? Does it unreasonably restrict the suit actor's movements? Will it be so heavy or unbalanced it has to be quickly removed in favor of something easier to do stunts in?

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That you have to be an expert -- or at least deeply invested in the franchise -- to appreciate a good Kamen Rider costume design? That you have to have a deep knowledge of tokusatsu production limitations to appreciate the way a suit looks? That you have to devote 24-25 hours of your life to a show in order to judge its aesthetic? That one can't declare a design cool if she hasn't internalized 45 years of Kamen Rider history?

Excuse me if I think that's a pretty darn elitist position.

If Gaim (Orange Arms), Baron, Zangetsu, Ryugen, and Gridon evoke spontaneous positive emotional reactions from people who aren't invested in the minutia of the series, I'd say those reactions are as valid as yours or mine.

This is true of a novel, or a book where the pictures are mere decoration. But to say this of any visual medium? Nonsense. In a visual medium, the visuals should be telling just as much, if not more, of the story than the words the actors are saying. Any visual element that does not reinforce and progress the narrative, or that harms or hinders the narrative, is simply bad storytelling. And when I say a design is bad, that is what I mean: that I don't think it tells the story, that it actually does harm to the idea it's supposed to represent.

Hm. I see art direction and costume design as supplemental to the real meat of visual narrative -- that is, the sequential arrangement of images that represent the transition of a character or object from status-A to status-B. The design is gravy -- a superficial element added to give the narrative more flavor.

To present a relevant analogy: the narrative is a strawberry and the design is melted chocolate fondue. If the strawberry is rotten or under-ripe, no amount of chocolate will make it taste good. But if the strawberry is fresh and ripe, you won't need chocolate to make it taste good. Adding the chocolate may enhance the experience, but it's improving something that's already fundamentally delicious.

To further clarify my point with an example: I hate the design aesthetic of post-TOS Star Trek. It's sterile, unflattering, monotonous, cheap, and frankly, straight-up uglytown. But I still love TNG and DS9 -- because I get so invested in the well-told narratives that I forget, or ignore, how ugly I find everything else. (Though I think we can all agree that Voyager is a rotten strawberry dipped in melted Kraft singles.)

The designs can kill your enjoyment, and that's valid -- after all, a lot of people are allergic to chocolate. But I think it's still too early to determine if the designs, which a lot of people love, will kill Gaim.

By the time Urobuchi was on board, fruit was locked in place, so he was able to build the narrative around it. And, as far as that goes, I think his work is commendable. A lot of lesser writers simply could not have pulled it off. But the fact remains that in Gaim, Urobuchi is straining to accommodate Bandai when it comes to the fruit stuff. He didn't come to Rider with some grand high concept that required fruit-themed powers for the characters.

This, we can agree on. Commendable work, Urobuchi.
 
Excuse me if I think that's a pretty darn elitist position.

Well, it's a good thing that's not my position, or even vaguely related to it. My position is this: it's not enough for a Rider design to be something someone looks at, goes "That's cool," and then forgets about entirely. That's not good enough. A good Rider design, or really any good superhero design, will stick in your memory and inspire curiosity about the fiction. It will be something you can look at and look at and look at, across various media and merchandise, without tiring of it. A good superhero design combines all the principles of commercial art design and packaging design, along with the demands of whatever the narrative in question will be.

If someone glances at it and has a "spontaneous positive emotional reaction," that doesn't really say anything substantial about the design. It doesn't matter who that person is, whether or not they're into the franchise already, or what their demographic stats happen to be. The problem is that the reaction is transitory-- they're not acting on it. If you had said your friends had seen the Gaim designs and immediately wanted to watch the show or buy some FiguArts, I would be impressed. That would indicate that looks alone made them want to engage with the material. Instead, it apparently inspired dismissive racist jokes, and I... don't see how that flatters Gaim's design work. It would appear to be the very definition of damning with faint praise, in fact.

If the strawberry is rotten or under-ripe, no amount of chocolate will make it taste good.

Yeah, I don't agree in the slightest. There's any number of Rider projects with laughable narratives that are still pleasant enough to watch, because the design work was excellent and that helped make sure the stunt and FX teams could make their half of the show enjoyable even when the script writers were failing. That's because the designs are the strawberry, and the narrative is the chocolate. That's why Bandai does the design work first, before anything else, before they even hire a writer, and the narrative is built well after the designs are done. Bandai does not put the cart before the horse in this regard. Some producers are just too willing to sign off on whatever Bandai shows them.

To further clarify my point with an example: I hate the design aesthetic of post-TOS Star Trek. It's sterile, unflattering, monotonous, cheap, and frankly, straight-up uglytown. But I still love TNG and DS9 -- because I get so invested in the well-told narratives that I forget, or ignore, how ugly I find everything else.

I am glad you enjoy well-told narratives like "Code of Honor," "Sub Rosa," "Profit and Lace," and "Let He Who is Without Sin..."

But I think it's still too early to determine if the designs, which a lot of people love, will kill Gaim.

Let's make one thing clear: I don't think the designs, even though there's some real stinkers in the line, will "kill" Gaim in any meaningful way. The quality of the design work in Rider rarely affects the franchise's bottom line, since the target audience is kids 3-6. Kids are not exactly discriminating connoisseurs. The main thing that will keep kids away is if the toy engineering sucks so the toys aren't fun, or if Bandai really drops the ball on marketing. Both are things that have happened before. Rider can be a big hit without good storytelling, or even any coherent story at all. So what I'm talking about here isn't any sort of financial success.

I'm talking about, basically, how well I think the designs allow the director to pay off Urobuchi's set-ups with memorable action scenes. I mean, that's what Rider's format boils down to: Urobuchi writes the drama portion of the show to build tension and interest in the action portion of the show, which the action director and episode director oversee. The episode's final fight is the climax of that portion of narrative.

Setting aside the matter of subjective aesthetics, I do think the designs actively damage the action portion of the show, by restricting what the action director and stunt actors can meaningfully have the main character do. I don't think it's a coincidence that Pineapple Arms got rolled out for use in a "fight" that was mostly Seiji Takaiwa gesturing unconvincingly at a "monster" that was added via green screen later. I think we'll see design flaws in the suits probably driving a lot of the action and stunt decisions in Gaim, and that's usually not to a show's benefit. It means the stories will build toward climaxes that can end up feeling a bit too arbitrary, and ultimately, those climaxes might not string together in any sort of logical way.
 
Then.
uaf5.png

Now.
 
I am glad you enjoy well-told narratives like "Code of Honor," "Sub Rosa," "Profit and Lace," and "Let He Who is Without Sin..."

Not really wanting to get involved in the discussion, but I just had to ask if you had those titles at immediate recall, or if you had to google "The one where Tasha has the spiky glove thing"
 
The corporations, man. They control everything. The Bandai-Toei complex is strangeholding the quality of Rider and Sentai.

*nods*

At least some of the Hibiki weapons do look nice. The drumsticks can double as flame swords, Nishiki's triangle is a bo staff, and the guitars are essentially spears/halberd-esque. And the Disc Animals I thought were the only time the cutesy helper bots didn't clash with the rest of the show (they were still useless in a fight though).

The drumsticks were the only weapons of Hibiki I remember liking at the time. The trumpet, though? Ech. I still think that's dopey.

As for the vending machine bikes... at least they're a clever way of storing and hiding your vehicles throughout the city for quick access? I was more miffed at the Candroids. Why not conventional weapons that the Kougami soldiers and Goto use, or spare Birth guns and Medaljabulars?

I just couldn't believe it when I saw those vending machine bikes used in the show. I still think it's the dumbest piece of Rider transportation since RX's ladybug car. I'll say this much, though -- at least the Candroids fit in with the vending machine -- Fourze's food robots were stupider, IMO, a precursor to the "Hey, kids like fruit, let's make a toy out of that!" (Probably the same Bandai nitwit behind both, BTW.)

Was Ishinomori that proud of this in the end? The reception was very negative and I heard even he didn't like it as much.
If there's anything I'd call his true version of Kamen Rider, it might have been BLACK. Or, well... the original manga.

It could have just been PR BS to sell the movie, but he was fond enough of it at the time it was released, even appearing in it. And he can't completely crap on it since his son co-wrote it.

I loved Shin but I wouldn't call it serious. 99% of it is a werewolf B-movie that Ishinomori put into a word processor and did a find-replace to change every instance of the word "wolf" into "grasshopper", and then he tagged on a laugh-out-loud wtf ending onto it.

This is just a view of the movie from today's perspective, though. As a longtime defender of the movie, I'd like to stress just how innovative and risky the project was at the time. A serious take on a classic character, a toku that was one-hundred percent for adults and NOT cheesecake or pornographic -- it was unheard of at the time! It was treading new waters. Now, I don't think the movie is perfect, I think a lot of its problems come from Toei still being so cautious that they only wanted to risk doing it as a direct-to-video (at a time before undiscriminating directors like Takashi Miike took the format as seriously as any of their other films).

It was a big experiment and I don't feel like the movie, at the time, was ever judged on its own merits, but the fans just got hung up on the superficial bullshit like "Shin doesn't have a belt! He doesn't henshin! He doesn't ride a bike when transformed! He fights for his own reasons and not world peace! He kills a man in cold blood!" Which is why they went out of their way to put all that stuff in ZO, and guess what? It was an instantly forgettable, it was by-the-numbers, it was nowhere near as ambitious and didn't do any more for the franchise than Shin did.
 
Not really wanting to get involved in the discussion, but I just had to ask if you had those titles at immediate recall, or if you had to google "The one where Tasha has the spiky glove thing"

I knew Profit and Lace and Code of Honor off the top of my head. I had to Google for the other two. I like it when Star Trek is good, but I also like it when it's really, really terrible.

(The same goes for Rider, incidentally...)
 
Not really wanting to get involved in the discussion, but I just had to ask if you had those titles at immediate recall, or if you had to google "The one where Tasha has the spiky glove thing"
I knew Profit and Lace and Code of Honor off the top of my head. I had to Google for the other two. I like it when Star Trek is good, but I also like it when it's really, really terrible.

(The same goes for Rider, incidentally...)
There's just something about Tasha when she had the spiky glove thing.
:coolshades:
 

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