[DISCUSSION] Kamen Rider Zi-O, Episode 47

[SamuraiEchidna]

A lot of time and effort went into this...

Welcome to the discussion thread for Kamen Rider Zi-O, episode 47; "2019: "The Vanishing Watches".
(Episode title's translation may vary depending on your fansub group of choice.)
This week: Strange occurrences happen all over Japan, from a strange wall dividing the country to Sougo's Ridewatches mysteriously losing their power. With Tsukasa's powers, Tsukuyomi takes Sougo to her original timeline to investigate as an army of Roidmudes led by Mashin Chaser stand in their way.

This thread was made with Toku Prime's permission. And remember, this is a SPOILER ZONE! If you are trying to avoid spoilers, this is not the place for you.
HOWEVER! This is not the place discuss future episodes nor next-episode previews. You may discuss previous episodes and related subjects, but stick to the episode at hand. Please be considerate of those who haven't watched ahead yet. Thank you.​

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

Another Zi-O II Watch is now a Deus Ex-Machina that can reverse time without ever being used to transform to revert Tsukasa back from the dead (which was a pointless scene).

The only two characters I liked from Drive was Chase and Heart, and them bringing him back here was nice, but again, it's kind of inconsequential. Doesn't matter what they do with him in the next episode, they could have done that on a spin-off sequel rather than the Mashin Chaser movie we got (which was like mediocre at best since the "robot gains feelings" trope has been done to death but better in other medias).

Aqua dying somehow was the trigger to "harden" Sougo, which is ridiculous. You barely knew the guy. This has always been my problem with Sougo. He gets triggered into caring about people, it's almost like he has no personality of his own. I mean, look back at the Kiva episode (to which I don't think we've ever seen the Kiva Armor, or Blade armor, or even Kabuto or the Agito armor at all). In that episode, instead of using Kivat-bat's voice actor voice Ginga, they could have had Kivat-bat be the one who hands the Kiva Ridewatch to Sougo. But of course, paying Jiro's actor to come back saves them the hardwork of actually doing CGI (to which, I say the cost of is probably higher than just letting someone come in and do the CGI work). Or, Another Kiva could have been Kivat-Bat who got turned into Another Ridewatch instead of the pointless romance plot they have going for Sougo.

You see, you'd expect something like losing a loved one would make Sougo harden. Not another Rider who he kinda had almost no relationship with prior to their meeting dying. Yeah, I enjoyed seeing Aqua back, and seeing him fight Eternal and all that, but Jesus, could these guys be more inept at storytelling?

They also missed out on making Another World where Aqua remained as Poseidon and have them fight each other.

Tsukasa becoming Zi-O was like, okay, I get it, we're going for the double effect of two anniversary show Riders, one acting as the senpai-like figure and the other the kouhei. But if all it took was the Decade Ridewatch to get Tsukasa half his power back to be able to transform, you'd think he'd ask for it back sooner than after getting blasted by Swartz and needed Kaito to reverse his death for him.

Kaito becoming Zi-O II was also completely unnecessary. Just because they both share Rider Summoning powers, doesn't mean it's applicable in any sense to make him shift from one to another from a writing standpoint. This is just, and repeat after me, LAZY WRITING. I don't care if anyone likes this show, it just shows you've never written anything in your life or wrote too much fanfiction to begin with or even read good books or comics/manga.

There is a universal standard for how things work, Joseph Campbell even wrote a whole book on the Monomyth for a hero's journey. It's fine to subvert it and deconstruct it, IF YOU KNEW THE RULES BY HEART. Clearly, Zi-O's writers don't.

Just compare it to Watchmen, a true subversion and deconstruction of the Superhero genre, or Hunter x Hunter, a deconstruction of the Shounen genre, and compare that to stuff like Star Wars The Last Jedi and Sword Art Online (both are trash).

These kinds of stories require no hard work. I could crank out something like this in a few weeks to months. Just because you put effort into doesn't mean it's hard work. And hard work doesn't mean it's good work either. I worked hard scrubbing toilets once as a janitor, and even I wouldn't call that good work.

 

[Kamen Rider IXA]

Hunter x Hunter, a deconstruction of the Shounen genre

I never took HxH as a deconstruction, just author actually being creative and interested in exploring what you can do within shounen genre, instead of rehashing DBZ and Saint Seiya again and again.

(which was like mediocre at best since the "robot gains feelings" trope has been done to death but better in other medias).

It was still one of the best things to come out of Drive. It was refreshing to see Chase relevant for the first (and pretty much only) time since early 20s again, even if his gaiden doesn't excuse how show ended up treating him. Getting away from tiresome main plot to a little sellf-contained story with different villain was nice as well.
I like all three Drive's gaidens. They are what they are, but still generally a big step up from painful mediocrity of tv show.

Clearly, Zi-O's writers don't.

Well, duh. Just look at writers Shimoyama and Mouri and their other work. Ninninger and Kyuranger - both are pretty messy series to put it lightly. Though from what I've heard about Shimoyama, he's likely just writing down whatever stupid ideas Shirakura might have. And Shirakura is... well, Shirakura.

On a side note, I never understood appeal of Aqua. He was a filler in his own movie with very rushed introduction and banal characrer arc. First Super Hero Generations games brings him of all people back and now Zi-O does the same.
I don't hate Aqua, just curious what people see in him.

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

Well, there are plenty of examples that could be pointed to Hunter x Hunter being a good deconstruction in a sense, the most famous examples are like when Gon completely "transforms". Usually, transformation sequences are meant to be a sign of hope in Shounen. Look at DBZ's moments of Goku's transformation. There's also the entire narrative about Nen, in that it took a page out of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and went to great lengths to explain how each of them work, and even that isn't completely set in stone. There's also the case that it begins off like Pokémon, i.e. kid with an absentee father who is one of the best Hunter/Pokémon Trainers in the world (except in Hunter x Hunter, Gon DOES meet Ging, whereas in Pokémon, Satoshi never grows up and the father plot point is dropped so fast like a hot mess).

Yes, I do agree it was one of the best things that came out of Drive. The problem here is that, we are stuck in this mentality of "oh, at least that was better. This was worse than it was the last time". Like, we accept things because it was "slightly" better than what we previously had and relegate what is truly "good" and compartmentalize it as some obscure part of history as if it was only a product of it's era and culture, which isn't true. Great pieces are timeless, because they are inherently good. That's why I rank that Gaiden as mediocre still. Sure, I loved the involvement with Accel and all, it made sense, but it's still on the mediocre scale of things, even if it's on the "better" side of mediocrity.

I'm not a big fan of Aqua either. I thought his suit looks too "slapped together last minute" ish for my taste, but I liked the idea of a water-powered Rider instead of wind with a design that pays respect to the original double Riders. I thought he was wasted in his own movie too. I also understand the reason for his Jet ski is because he's a reference to another hero Ishinomori created, and I liked that in the sense at least it pays respect to his legacy. Outside of that, I felt like Aqua didn't need to be a key player or anything in Zi-O at all. If anything, Aqua should have been given his own Gaiden to expand on his story, maybe make the suit look better.

 

[Kamen Rider IXA]

Most of Rider Movies are bad anyway, so gaidens are legit improvment over rubbish Toei usually ships into cinema (just compare Gaim movies and gaidens). At least with Chaser gaiden there was an intent to tell a character-driven story (even if it's not the most original one) and not whatever the hell Drive was trying to do with main plot.

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

Like, I give the Chaser Gaiden a high score already in all of the Gaiden's Toei's ever released. I think the core of my issue with it was that it wasn't trying to do something original (that's just me, speaking as someone who objectively looks for originality constantly).

I can applaud it for it's character driven focus, but there's a lot of things I also don't understand about the usage of some of it's symbolisms and metaphors. Why the need for the overplayed symbolisms of wings for that Gaia Memory (the whole fallen angel narrative, and that Chase is now set free due to being able to "fly away with his emotions") as well as the Rhino Viral Core. What does the Rhino symbolize, when it comes to Chase?

Like, Chase was a very cool character, with great lore behind him being Proto-Drive and all that. His journey from Hero to Villain to Hero again was refreshing to see, but it was all muddied by Drive's uncertainty about which character needed the center focus the most.

Like yeah, I enjoyed the Chaser Gaiden more than anything Drive offered. Which brings me back to Zi-O bringing him back to just capitalize on your nostalgia for his great moment of redemption again, which is distasteful, even if it's "epic".

Also, it seems like Zi-O is overplaying it's own narrative when it comes to these returning Dark Riders. Previously, Eternal was all "I am Shinigami". Now, Chase is also all "I am Shinigami". Are we gonna tally off how many characters called themselves "Shinigami" throughout the entirety of Kamen Rider history? Now that's just redundant.

 

[Kamen Rider IXA]

Since it's a catchphrase both characters use, Zi-O can't exactly do much about it. It's more of a thing with Phase 2 seasons rehashing themselves in general.
Since so many actors from W and Drive are big names now, I can't exactly blame Zi-O for the choices (weren't there some worries that pretty much no Riders from Drive could return, because it's not easy to get any of them?).
They managed to get back so many characters from Drive in one way or another (pretty much everyone relevant, aside from Kiriko and Drive himself), so at least fans of the show got more than, say, fans of Fourze. I just don't get why they didn't pull Kabuto tribute again. Bring back Krim belt again and make Chase become a proper Drive. Easy way to get actual Drive in this tribute. Sounds like an obvious idea, isn't it? Instead we get Krim in the movie for some reason.
As for W side of things, it's a shame they couldn't get Renn Kiriyama back. He frequently elevates all crossovers he's in just by his presence alone. Would have been nice to see first and last Riders of Phase 2, since we likely won't get Godai (unless Toei's saving him for final episode or Zero-One crossover, which seems unlikely). Maybe get some sort of closure on W/Eternal thing after Eternal Gaiden as well.

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

See, that would have made more sense to make Chase Drive than to make Kagami Kabuto. Kagami was firm in in his role as being Gatack. With Chase, becoming Drive would simply be becoming what he was meant to be from the start anyways.

I'm not a big fan of Fourze, I dropped it after a while and only watched clips here and there of it to get the gist of it (Decade style). So yeah, I can't really care about it or Wizard, because those were the first two series that made me drop Kamen Rider for the first time in my life, having grown up on DVDs and VHS of every single Kamen Rider show there was.

 

[Hangyakuno]

Maybe because they can't get actor for Krim and Chase in same schedule. BUT, they definitely can get Krim and Go altogether in movie so actually they can Kabuto tribute style with Go transform to Drive.
And in Drive, no one really fixed to their default transformation like Kabuto and Gattack. Mach have shareable device with Drive which turn them into Deadheat form which only have slight modification for eachother version. Drive get upgrade in movie which resemble Mashiin Chaser. And Chase, is proto Drive.
Unlike Kagami which having Gattack Zecter as his turning point to become himself. As far I know, there is no meaningful reason for Krim to choose Tomari, except for his body. If Go completed his training earlier, maybe Krim will choose him as Drive. I mean, he even ask Kiriko first rather than Tomari.

 

[Kamen Rider IXA]

I'm not a big fan of Fourze, I dropped it after a while and only watched clips here and there of it to get the gist of it (Decade style). So yeah, I can't really care about it or Wizard, because those were the first two series that made me drop Kamen Rider for the first time in my life, having grown up on DVDs and VHS of every single Kamen Rider show there was.

I'm not a big fan of Fourze either, but if show is supposed to celebrate Heisei Riders, it shouldn't just ignore some series (although since most of Fourze main cast is pretty much unavaliable, I guess it can't be helped).

I think ZI-O finally convinced me that Gokaiger/Mebius-like anniversaries just won't work for Kamen Rider. Too many actors don't care/can't afford to return to the franchise. Most of people who have returned have been doing Climax Heroes/Battride War games since 2012 or so and Toei have been just lazy to get them back before (and they also managed to get Takeru Satoh for like one scene?). It's a shame, but that's how it seems to be. They tried to bring as many people as they could for Build/Ex-Aid movie and most of them still can't share a single scene untranformed. I don't think we will ever get something like Legendary Seven scenes from Stronger ever again.

Maybe because they can't get actor for Krim and Chase in same schedule.

Krim is pretty much just the belt, so it's an issue with voice-recording instead of physical appearance. It's more easy to do and they could have recorded his lines during shooting of the movie (I assume it took place in early spring, likely that's why they could make Go to appear in that Brain special thing).