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Dr Kain
Guest
One of my friends said that for a show that only has 2 episodes left, nothing feels like it is winding down.
[DISCUSSION] Kamen Rider Zi-O, Episode 47
- Thread starter SamuraiEchidna
- Start date
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raden238
Guest
So we went from time travel destruction plot to Decade's multi-world destruction plot? Amazing, even the last scene of the episode was straight out of Decade. Tsukasa was still able to retain his Rider powers, because he somehow manage to only put "half" of his energy into it.
I agree with Japaneseseriesfan, the whole Tsukasa death scene and Kaito using the Another Zi-O II ridewatch to save him ala reversing time was pointless. I guess the writers just wanted to put more weight on the scene and show the stakes involve, so characters are now officially dying.
This episode was fun to watch, Decade using another Phase 2 Kamen Ride was great and this just felt like a Decade episode. So I guess it's confirmed, Zi-O really is just a remake of Decade's story. Hopefully we get a complete ending this time.
I agree with Japaneseseriesfan, the whole Tsukasa death scene and Kaito using the Another Zi-O II ridewatch to save him ala reversing time was pointless. I guess the writers just wanted to put more weight on the scene and show the stakes involve, so characters are now officially dying.
This episode was fun to watch, Decade using another Phase 2 Kamen Ride was great and this just felt like a Decade episode. So I guess it's confirmed, Zi-O really is just a remake of Decade's story. Hopefully we get a complete ending this time.
SamuraiEchidna
Active Member
For a show called Zi-O, this had way more to do with Decade than anything. They brought back the Decade-style multiverse, and Tsukasa managed to recover some of his powers. The final panoramic shot really gave me goosebumps! I am kind of sad that DiEnd lost that Another Ride Watch, he could have used it to bring back Aqua (assuming he really is dead, but I still have my doubts). And Schwarz proved he is still a villain through and through, he’s just trying to justify it with that “I’m saving my own world/timeline” excuse. But doing that has nothing to do with him wanting to seize Sougo's power for himself. So basically Schwarz is the SJW of the Kamen Rider franchise. 
I think you misinterpreted some scenes in this episode.
Sougo isn't "hardened". He may be a bit upset or rattled, but I wouldn't say "hardened". And even if he was, it's not because Aqua died. It's because Tsukuyomi's life is still on the line. Remember, Schwarz gave him an ultimatum: Defeat him and Tsukuyomi dies, or become Oma and she lives. And furthermore, for a hardened character, Sougo's actually taking it pretty well. Because what does he decide to do? He travels Tsukuyomi's past to get more answers. Why? Because he doesn't want to play by Schwarz rules. He wants to find a way to save her AND prevent the rise of Oma.
Tsukasa probably didn't get the other half of his Rider powers back for the same reason why Kaito was holding back on using the Zi-O II Another Ride Watch. They were both saving that power as an element of surprise, for when they'd need it most. It's possible that Tsukasa didn't think young Schwarz would try to destroy Sougo/Older Tsukuyomi, in which case Tsukasa had to make a split-second decision, and asking for his Ride Watch back wouldn't give him enough time to save them. The drama behind the scene is a little forced, but not completely without some logic.
Though I do want to hear more about why you think it was so unnecessary for Kaito to become Zi-O II, preferably without comparing it to other pieces of fiction as well as insulting fans of the show. It's been established since the being that Another Ride Watches tend to have a habbit of possessing their hosts and bringing out the worst in them. And if this watch is a reflection of Zi-O's powers, it's easy to assume that such a watch would be a bit more aggressive about possessing whoever uses it. Or is there something else about the scene that made it pointless? I really want to know!
P.S. You can insult the show itself all you want, but I don't think you or anyone has the right to insult anyone's personal taste. I have no respect for anyone that tries to thought-police others on what's good and what they should like, especially when they use "you've never done it before, so how would you know" mentality as an excuse. Maybe you've heard this before, but I don't need to be master chef to know what a good burger tastes like. I can agree with you that Zi-O has become a bit too convoluted in the later half of the series (even I often feel like I need notes and a few stretches of logic to make some of it work), but that gives you no right to insult anyone who likes this show. And if you don't like the show, you don't have to keep watching it either. If you're still watching it for certain reasons, then maybe you can respect that other people might have their own reasons for watching it. (Makes me wonder, if you really were a janitor as you say, would you understand the plight of other janitors doing the same grueling work or would you give them a hard time for not cleaning stuff the same way you would?)
Isn't that a good thing?
I think you misinterpreted some scenes in this episode.
Sougo isn't "hardened". He may be a bit upset or rattled, but I wouldn't say "hardened". And even if he was, it's not because Aqua died. It's because Tsukuyomi's life is still on the line. Remember, Schwarz gave him an ultimatum: Defeat him and Tsukuyomi dies, or become Oma and she lives. And furthermore, for a hardened character, Sougo's actually taking it pretty well. Because what does he decide to do? He travels Tsukuyomi's past to get more answers. Why? Because he doesn't want to play by Schwarz rules. He wants to find a way to save her AND prevent the rise of Oma.
Tsukasa probably didn't get the other half of his Rider powers back for the same reason why Kaito was holding back on using the Zi-O II Another Ride Watch. They were both saving that power as an element of surprise, for when they'd need it most. It's possible that Tsukasa didn't think young Schwarz would try to destroy Sougo/Older Tsukuyomi, in which case Tsukasa had to make a split-second decision, and asking for his Ride Watch back wouldn't give him enough time to save them. The drama behind the scene is a little forced, but not completely without some logic.
Though I do want to hear more about why you think it was so unnecessary for Kaito to become Zi-O II, preferably without comparing it to other pieces of fiction as well as insulting fans of the show. It's been established since the being that Another Ride Watches tend to have a habbit of possessing their hosts and bringing out the worst in them. And if this watch is a reflection of Zi-O's powers, it's easy to assume that such a watch would be a bit more aggressive about possessing whoever uses it. Or is there something else about the scene that made it pointless? I really want to know!
P.S. You can insult the show itself all you want, but I don't think you or anyone has the right to insult anyone's personal taste. I have no respect for anyone that tries to thought-police others on what's good and what they should like, especially when they use "you've never done it before, so how would you know" mentality as an excuse. Maybe you've heard this before, but I don't need to be master chef to know what a good burger tastes like. I can agree with you that Zi-O has become a bit too convoluted in the later half of the series (even I often feel like I need notes and a few stretches of logic to make some of it work), but that gives you no right to insult anyone who likes this show. And if you don't like the show, you don't have to keep watching it either. If you're still watching it for certain reasons, then maybe you can respect that other people might have their own reasons for watching it. (Makes me wonder, if you really were a janitor as you say, would you understand the plight of other janitors doing the same grueling work or would you give them a hard time for not cleaning stuff the same way you would?)
Isn't that a good thing?
Japaneseseriesfan
A simple passerby...
Sorry, my train of thought broke since you said I "insulted" fans of the series. If saying you like something that is objectively bad is an insult, then you're in for a world of pain being triggered by nonsense. I like the Pirates of the Caribbean series, but even I admit it's objectively bad. You know, it's okay to like bad media, right? Just don't try to vouch for it to be good and make up excuses for it. Jeez, I can admit that OOO is an objectively bad series but still like it. The same with a lot of stuff in Ex-AID, but I will NEVER try to justify it and make stretches in logic just so I can come back at someone and say I feel insulted just because they didn't validate my personal preferences.
Japaneseseriesfan
A simple passerby...
And yes, I would tell the other janitors I shifted for that they didn't clean it properly, because now it's my job to clean up the **** stains they didn't bother to. Doesn't matter if it's a grueling work, you either do it right or you don't.
Sorry, but I wasn't even "thought-policing". If anything, that seems to be like what you're doing more "you can't say so and so because we feel insulted". I was simply giving my knowledge on what I've learned and considered to be good storytelling, you know, from actual professors and reading books and experiences. So no, your argument about not being a MasterChef but being able to tell whether a burger is good is kind of irrelevant. It's like saying the food taste good, but not realizing it's the insane amount of MSG they threw in there (which is bad for your health) that made it taste that way to begin with.
Sorry, but I wasn't even "thought-policing". If anything, that seems to be like what you're doing more "you can't say so and so because we feel insulted". I was simply giving my knowledge on what I've learned and considered to be good storytelling, you know, from actual professors and reading books and experiences. So no, your argument about not being a MasterChef but being able to tell whether a burger is good is kind of irrelevant. It's like saying the food taste good, but not realizing it's the insane amount of MSG they threw in there (which is bad for your health) that made it taste that way to begin with.
SamuraiEchidna
Active Member
It's fine. No one here is triggered. I was just calling it like I saw it, and I even thought about editing my thoughts down to something more simple and less strongly-worded. But let's carry on, shall we?
And I never said Zi-O was a masterpiece either. Then again, I'm not the one telling people to go watch Watchmen or Hunter x Hunter instead. I also try to avoid sentences that could be misconstrued when they start with "I don't care if anyone likes this show, ...". I was actually trying to build a bridge of agreement with you when I said how sometimes I feel like I need notes to keep up with Zi-O. Meaning, I wouldn't recommend the show unless someone was ready to go through some logical leaps to enjoy it; they'd need to be in the right mind set and willing to give it a fair chance just because it's not a "good" piece of fiction. Things indeed can be objectively bad or objectively good, a.k.a. good or bad just because they don't connect with someone's personal taste. But that's the key phrase in all this, personal taste.
Good or not, everyone has their own life experiences, and everyone has their own sense of personal taste. I think we're both smart enough to know that personal taste is subjective. And whether we're talking about Watchmen, Zi-O, or anything in between... It's all fiction, my friend. Just a piece of escapism for whoever wants it. Nothing to get so shook over.
I'm willing to bet that the both of us could have great, productive discussions about fiction, deconstruction, and so on. I just think time and place matters too.Well in that case, thank you for giving your educational experience to... whoever asked for it, I guess. Personally, if I was running a restaurant, and the MSG burger really was the most popular item on the menu, then I'd respect that. I might offer other, more healthy items as well, but I would still offer the MSG burger too because profits talk. BTW, I wasn't talking about anyone you exchange shifts with, I meant fellow janitors in the general sense. But it's nice to know that you have no sympathy for people who have to do the same kind of work. At least now I know where you stand on the matter.
Japaneseseriesfan
A simple passerby...
Okay, you really need to stop re-contextualizing things I say because that's how you took it. I never said "Go watch Watchmen or Hunter x Hunter instead of Zi-O". I brought those up as examples of great deconstructions of the genres and how to subvert expectations properly in a story.
I understand you're trying to build a bridge, but honestly, "I don't care if anyone likes this show" won't help you bridge with someone who is taking notes on the show, which I think is pointless.
Nope, that's where you're all wrong. Things can be good or bad, REGARDLESS of personal taste. You realize, you just missed the entire point on why I've even been responding, right? I don't really care if people don't ask for my opinion, I see it as a duty to spread the correct information about objectivity vs subjectivity as much as I can. I can have a discussion anywhere, regardless of time and place. I couldn't care less about social norms. I was born with an extreme case of ADHD, and no one ever catered to my needs, I was always expected to adhere to "social norms", until I realized being me, without taking any pills, is much, much more freeing and I learn things faster than normal people do.
And no, I feel no sympathy for people who become Janitors. They didn't lose an arm or a leg, all that happened was 1. You got unlucky in life and need a job or 2. Got no education and this is the only thing available. Just because someone is in a low paying job, doesn't elicit some type of sympathy. If that were the case, why don't you show sympathy to everyone you meet that isn't in a high paying job? I have respect for people who do these jobs, not sympathy. It's the same as not giving a sick person sympathy because they don't want your sympathy. You will NEVER understand the pain someone goes through in cancer therapy, so the last thing they want to hear is your whinny "I'm so sorry". Respect them and their will power, but don't insult them with your sympathy.
Also, if you're really gonna advocate for selling MSG Burgers "because profits", I have nothing to say to you anymore in the future. That's the type of mentality that destroys families, and dare I say, destroys great fictional franchises. You realize, money is just an idea, right? They just slapped numbers on it without even thinking of the repercussions. I'd rather have an economy where we have a barter system, and the value of each thing is calculated by it's efficiency and nutritious values. For example, if an orange is more nutritious than an apple, you'd have to exchange two apples for 1 orange. I couldn't care less about the concept of money to be fair, but I only care about it because I need to earn to live, otherwise, anyone who thinks selling something that is bad for health for profit, I would never talk to, ever.
I understand you're trying to build a bridge, but honestly, "I don't care if anyone likes this show" won't help you bridge with someone who is taking notes on the show, which I think is pointless.
Nope, that's where you're all wrong. Things can be good or bad, REGARDLESS of personal taste. You realize, you just missed the entire point on why I've even been responding, right? I don't really care if people don't ask for my opinion, I see it as a duty to spread the correct information about objectivity vs subjectivity as much as I can. I can have a discussion anywhere, regardless of time and place. I couldn't care less about social norms. I was born with an extreme case of ADHD, and no one ever catered to my needs, I was always expected to adhere to "social norms", until I realized being me, without taking any pills, is much, much more freeing and I learn things faster than normal people do.
And no, I feel no sympathy for people who become Janitors. They didn't lose an arm or a leg, all that happened was 1. You got unlucky in life and need a job or 2. Got no education and this is the only thing available. Just because someone is in a low paying job, doesn't elicit some type of sympathy. If that were the case, why don't you show sympathy to everyone you meet that isn't in a high paying job? I have respect for people who do these jobs, not sympathy. It's the same as not giving a sick person sympathy because they don't want your sympathy. You will NEVER understand the pain someone goes through in cancer therapy, so the last thing they want to hear is your whinny "I'm so sorry". Respect them and their will power, but don't insult them with your sympathy.
Also, if you're really gonna advocate for selling MSG Burgers "because profits", I have nothing to say to you anymore in the future. That's the type of mentality that destroys families, and dare I say, destroys great fictional franchises. You realize, money is just an idea, right? They just slapped numbers on it without even thinking of the repercussions. I'd rather have an economy where we have a barter system, and the value of each thing is calculated by it's efficiency and nutritious values. For example, if an orange is more nutritious than an apple, you'd have to exchange two apples for 1 orange. I couldn't care less about the concept of money to be fair, but I only care about it because I need to earn to live, otherwise, anyone who thinks selling something that is bad for health for profit, I would never talk to, ever.
SamuraiEchidna
Active Member
You know what? I think I will.
Your posts, including this last one, have read like someone who is extremely defensive. (Or maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see.) You're still wrong about some things, and I stopped caring about the rest of your post the minute you decided to mention cancer patients. (Also, I think for once I can say this without being warned or banned: F*** you for making a commentary on how I would treat cancer patients. My grandmother has been wrestling with that for years. Hope you feel better about yourself now.)
I have tried to hear you out so that we could reach an understanding and maybe both come out of it this feeling equally acknowledged. However, we have only managed to steer far away from talking about this episode, and it's clear to me that you only care about being right than trying to reach a mutual understanding. So you know what?
You win.
You're correct on everything.
Your logic is flawless, your education is perfect, and anyone who dares question you is wrong. Thou shall have none smarter than Japaneseseriesfan. And I'm done with this conversation. I'm gonna move on now. I'll see you elsewhere. Congratulations.
Japaneseseriesfan
A simple passerby...
My point was never about winning. It is simply about logic overruling nonsense you vouch for. But whatever, you got triggered, decided to take things personal instead of seeing things for what I said. I have 2 relatives who died from cancer, and I saw them fight too, doesn't mean I understand how the pain felt like. I never said anything about how you would treat a cancer patient personally. Again, you take this in the extreme case and do this mental gymnastic to come back with a response. Any personal examples I've given you about myself is all at the expense of me to make a point. Any personal examples you've given about yourself (which is almost none) is to illustrate how you think what you think is right without actual points to back it up.
