Confused with decade's movie...

[Lynxara]

That still doesn't make sense. In the movie, Tsukasa and the others clearly don't recognize characters they've already met. There is no sense of friendship or even recognition between the core cast and Amazon, Black RX, and Black. It's almost like the movie writers had no idea what the TV show would be doing!

Likewise, in TV eps 30-31, there's no acknowledgment whatsoever that Narutaki's genuinely helped them out before. The characters all find him completely untrustworthy. Why wasn't Natsumi at least vouching for him, given that he saved her life? Jeez, these episodes don't even acknowledge that Ei-chan recently turned into a monster, died, and got better.

If the movie's reveal that Tsukasa is the Great Leader is really happening in sequence after the early Apollo Geist episodes, then... I mean, what the hell, why was Apollo Geist even going after Tsukasa? Why doesn't he acknowledge him as the Great Leader? Is he working for a different Dai-Shocker that doesn't talk to Shadow Moon and Hell Ambassador anymore?

The same thing goes for Ten-Faced Demon in Amazon's World. Why are these guys trying to kill their boss? How do they not know their boss when everyone else clearly does in the movie? It's almost like the TV show writers didn't know what was going to happen in the movie plot!

There's also problems with the behavior of the "true" Heisei Riders in the Rider World eps. Wait, didn't these guys just help Tsukasa defeat Dai-Shocker after he killed them all but they got better thanks to justice or some fucking thing? Why was he cool like ten minutes ago but he's a crap dude now?

Why didn't it occur to Wataru to pause during the movie and go, "Hey, douchebag, why aren't you killing those crappy alt-Riders? Chop chop, bro, the world is still ending." No, instead he was happy to team up with the dude and then... all the Heisei Riders go to plot turning against Tsukasa next time he travels?? Why didn't they jump his ass after Dai-Shocker was defeated, instead of wandering off?

Okay, let's say it was the alt-Riders present during the team-up sequence of All-Riders. Then why do we get a sign off from Shouichi?? How does it make any sense that Tsukasa was supposed to kill a bunch of dudes who can't actually die as long as justice exists somewhere?

Trying to slot the movie into anywhere in the TV show involves focusing on certain details of the show really goddamn selectively. It does not actually fit. The number of discontinuities far outnumber the bits you're citing.

 

[NeonZ]

In the movie, Tsukasa and the others clearly don't recognize characters they've already met. There is no sense of friendship or even recognition between the core cast and Amazon, Black RX, and Black.

Simple. Movie Amazon isn't Decade tv series' Amazon. He doesn't have the two bracelets that Decade series Amazon had at the end, after all. Black RX does talk in the final scene.

Likewise, in TV eps 30-31, there's no acknowledgment whatsoever that Narutaki's genuinely helped them out before. The characters all find him completely untrustworthy. Why wasn't Natsumi at least vouching for him, given that he saved her life?

The movie wasn't the first time that he offered help to her, remember Ryuuki World? He still has used monsters to attack them and other unrelated Riders in the past, not really a trustworthy person.

Jeez, these episodes don't even acknowledge that Ei-chan recently turned into a monster, died, and got better.

Even in the movie itself, the only reaction to that was a quick look from the others. And, obviously, if they didn't include a direct tie in scene from the movie, they didn't want to make direct references to it.

If the movie's reveal that Tsukasa is the Great Leader is really happening in sequence after the early Apollo Geist episodes, then... I mean, what the hell, why was Apollo Geist even going after Tsukasa? Why doesn't he acknowledge him as the Great Leader? Is he working for a different Dai-Shocker that doesn't talk to Shadow Moon and Hell Ambassador anymore?

The same thing goes for Ten-Faced Demon in Amazon's World. Why are these guys trying to kill their boss? How do they not know their boss when everyone else clearly does in the movie? It's almost like the TV show writers didn't know what was going to happen in the movie plot!

That only doesn't make sense if you assume ShadowMoon's betrayal was a spur of the moment action, and we've got no reason to believe that, considering how quickly it happened, and how he had even convinced Tsukasa's sister previously to help him. If they had no interest in following him anymore, killing an amnesiac Decade makes sense.

There's also problems with the behavior of the "true" Heisei Riders in the Rider World eps. Wait, didn't these guys just help Tsukasa defeat Dai-Shocker after he killed them all but they got better thanks to justice or some fucking thing? Why was he cool like ten minutes ago but he's a crap dude now?

Why didn't it occur to Wataru to pause during the movie and go, "Hey, douchebag, why aren't you killing those crappy alt-Riders? Chop chop, bro, the world is still ending." No, instead he was happy to team up with the dude and then... all the Heisei Riders go to plot turning against Tsukasa next time he travels?? Why didn't they jump his ass after Dai-Shocker was defeated, instead of wandering off?

They weren't plotting "against" him, considering how Movie Wars 2010 basically reveals that they intended to lose when they confronted him in the Rider War World. Decade needed to kill the Riders to connect them and allow the coexistence of the worlds after the "rebirth", and they(well, at least, Wataru) knew that.

The original plan probably was to kill the Riders of the 9 worlds, but, considering how they disappeared due to the world fusion, besides Kuuga, Wataru's group itself ended up used for that (+ Onodera because they don't have a Kuuga).

The reason they didn't do it in the Dai-Shocker World was because the worlds hadn't started completely disappearing yet and they needed to make Decade see that killing the Riders was necessary.

How does it make any sense that Tsukasa was supposed to kill a bunch of dudes who can't actually die as long as justice exists somewhere?

That's obviously not literal. We didn't even see how their supposed deaths after the All Riders' tournament took place, so there's nothing hinting at actual immortality.

 

[big_j_ny]

Trying to figure out where this movie fits in is like hammering a square peg into a round slot until you smash one or the other so they fit, despite now being a screwed-up mess. :laugh:

Iga, I don't know how Sentai manages to pull it off though. They manage to keep their movies canon with their own respective series without putting any effort to make an appropriate tie-in (the only exception is the Sentai team-ups, which are AU entirely).

 

[NeonZ]

Iga, I don't know how Sentai manages to pull it off though. They manage to keep their movies canon with their own respective series without putting any effort to make an appropriate tie-in (the only exception is the Sentai team-ups, which are AU entirely).

Almost any series could pull it off. Decade only had a problem due to the obligatory wall paper dropping scenes. Double basically did that to Begin's Night.

A few scenes hinting at it, but no direct tie in. However, it's obviously in continuity with the show due to those previous scenes. Yet, you don't get Double's cast making any comments about what they saw there in the tv series.

Anyway, I guess they didn't want to include direct tie in scenes for Decade's movie, unlike Den-O's, because it'd make the 2 last episodes even more ridiculous.

Think about it...

29 ends with proper All Riders tie in - continues in the movie!
30 starts with proper All Riders tie in - that movie was something! You missed it? Too bad!
31 ends with Movie Wars 2010 tie in - continues in the NEXT movie! Again!

 

[aniking_8]

The movie either take place after Amazon's world since after Daischocker castle Kaito actually join the crew, but Apollo Geist and Daishocker still exist so movie maybe alternate journey.

 

[NeonZ]

Apollo Geist and Daishocker still exist so movie maybe alternate journey.

This is another point I've mentioned ever since I watched the Rider War episodes for the first time. Dai-Shocker existed? Where?

I could only see one member, Apollogeist, manipulating a bunch of monsters native to the Kiva and Blade Worlds. He didn't call for Dai-Shocker reinforcements through dimensional walls even once in the Rider War World, unlike in both RX and Amazon Worlds.

 

[Lynxara]

Simple. Movie Amazon isn't Decade tv series' Amazon. He doesn't have the two bracelets that Decade series Amazon had at the end, after all. Black RX does talk in the final scene.

That explains Amazon, but why don't any of the core Decade cast recognize Amazon? Dude's kind of distinct-looking.

If it's not supposed to be the same Amazon, why not a scene where Yuusuke is like "It's our pal Amazon " and Tsukasa is all, "This is a different Amazon, he's no friend. "

Instead there's just a clear sense that Amazon is no different to Tsukasa-tachi than dudes like Super-1 and V3 that they would be logically seeing for the very first time. The way the characters are acting here makes no sense if the movie happens where you want to say it does.

The movie wasn't the first time that he offered help to her, remember Ryuuki World? He still has used monsters to attack them and other unrelated Riders in the past, not really a trustworthy person.

Yeah, but he doesn't just offer help here, he quite literally saves her life. There is no way she would've survived the Dai-Shocker monster attacks if Narutaki hadn't stepped in. It is vastly out of character for Natsumi (or Yuusuke) to dismiss that and act like he's still a crap dude in the final episodes.

Going from the TV show, Natsumi and Yuusuke are two of the few characters with anything like a consistent personality. This is yet another situation where if the movie happens where you say it did, the way the characters are acting makes absolutely no sense.

That's obviously not literal. We didn't even see how their supposed deaths after the All Riders' tournament took place, so there's nothing hinting at actual immortality.

Yeah, this is another bit that is really inconsistent with how the characters are acting. Tsukasa is really surprised to see the Riders again. He is completely convinced that they all died. All of Dai-Shocker is convinced they died. The plot does things that only make sense if they all died.

Ichigo is not a figurative dude. If he says "Kamen Riders can't die as long as there's justice," then there's at the very least a grain of truth to that. If there wasn't, they wouldn't have Ichigo say it. They'd have like Diend or someone who is clearly a bullshitter say it.

I have to say, a lot of your explanations for how the Decade plot is clearly "really" working make me want to absolutely fucking hate this series. If the plot is working in the ways you say it is, then it is a fucking stupid story about fucking stupid things and an absolute waste of anyone's time to watch.

 

[Quattro]

-The Time War retroactively erased it

Sadly, this one makes the most sense. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey and all that.

Well, that or Superboy punched another hole in the timeline. Either one works.

 

[NeonZ]

Instead there's just a clear sense that Amazon is no different to Tsukasa-tachi than dudes like Super-1 and V3 that they would be logically seeing for the very first time. The way the characters are acting here makes no sense if the movie happens where you want to say it does.

I don't see it. There's no reaction of surprise to Amazon's presence. There's just no reaction at all. It neither helps nor hurts the idea that the Amazon world had already taken place by that point. It's not like they'd be appearing out of nowhere too.

Tsukasa obviously prepared the tournament, those Riders weren't just appearing suddenly out of nowhere. If there was any reaction, it probably happened in the timeskip between Tsukasa recovering his memories and the tournament actually starting, not during the battles.

Yeah, but he doesn't just offer help here, he quite literally saves her life. There is no way she would've survived the Dai-Shocker monster attacks if Narutaki hadn't stepped in. It is vastly out of character for Natsumi (or Yuusuke) to dismiss that and act like he's still a crap dude in the final episodes.

Going from the TV show, Natsumi and Yuusuke are two of the few characters with anything like a consistent personality. This is yet another situation where if the movie happens where you say it did, the way the characters are acting makes absolutely no sense.

Ok, I've just rewatched that scene... and yet again... there's just no reaction. Natsumi is standing when Narutaki appears and just stays there. Afterwards, she's the one who pushes Tsukasa to go along with Narutaki's plan. How does that contradict anything?

Yeah, this is another bit that is really inconsistent with how the characters are acting. Tsukasa is really surprised to see the Riders again. He is completely convinced that they all died. All of Dai-Shocker is convinced they died. The plot does things that only make sense if they all died.

We know that Dai-Shocker did something to attempt to kill them after the tournament considering how, by Yuusuke's reactions and even his survival after his loss, no one is supposed to be dying there - yet Tsukasa was clearly sad, carrying a heavy burden even at the time of the tournament.

In any case, we weren't shown this scene where the Riders' supposedly died, only were told about it. I don't see how you can claim that they were CERTAINLY dead just because some characters thought they were, without even a death scene. It's not the first time villains "thought" heroes were dead.

Ichigo is not a figurative dude.

Really? I'd say that any of the Showa Riders could be considered that.

If he says "Kamen Riders can't die as long as there's justice," then there's at the very least a grain of truth to that. If there wasn't, they wouldn't have Ichigo say it. They'd have like Diend or someone who is clearly a bullshitter say it.

This has nothing to do with "bullshit". It's a standard heroic speech. Someone like Diend would never saying something like that.

I could see your point if we had seen some kind of resurrection, but the movie just shows the Riders arriving from somewhere else. Everything indicates that Dai-Shocker just made some mistaken in their unseen "kil the Riders!" operation.

I have to say, a lot of your explanations for how the Decade plot is clearly "really" working make me want to absolutely fucking hate this series. If the plot is working in the ways you say it is, then it is a fucking stupid story about fucking stupid things and an absolute waste of anyone's time to watch.

Most of the series didn't focus on any plot though. What makes or breaks Decade is enjoying the individual world hopping. Anyway, this is basically how I see the complete series plot:

Spoiler

[Information from All Riders] Since he was a child, Tsukasa traveled between the worlds. At some point, he learned they were approaching each other, destroying each other. Tsukikage convinced him that it was due to the Riders. Tsukasa creates Dai-Shocker becomes the Great Leader, uniting monsters from various worlds to destroy the Kamen Riders and conquer them. For that, he creates the Decade and Diend Driver - the later stolen by Daiki while Tsukasa receives the Decade Driver from Tsukikage. He starts a journey to kill the Kamen Riders and 'save' the worlds. However, at some point during that journey, he loses his memory and the Decadedriver.

Unknown to him, the bridges that he created traveling between each world [All Riders] tying those worlds that were born separate[tv series], were the true responsible for the fusion of worlds. [Movie Wars 2010] That's due to his status as one with no story, so he could have "any role", destroyer or creator. I'd think this is also the explanation for his different outfits/identities in each world.

Some Riders that met (and possibly fought against him) during his original journey, learn about that crisis and start a plan to save every world (Wataru's group). They needed Decade to unite the stories through his deck, afterwards Tsukasa himself would need to die, finishing the collection, to liberate them, and let them be reborn as connected worlds, allowing them to coexist with each other.

However, he doesn't do that, he befriends the Riders, rather than killing them, so the fusion of worlds continues. Eventually, he reaches the Rider War World, the fused world, and it's obvious that he hasn't done what he was supposed to do. At this point, Wataru and co decide to force him to fight, to make him accept his mission as the destroyer.

[Movie Wars 2010] He accepts that role, going in a rampage and killing every Rider until Kuuga. Afterwards, he lets himself be killed by Natsumi. The worlds are finally reborn and saved, thanks to his sacrifice. Tsukasa himself couldn't return because he didn't have a "story" to be recreated and connected, but, thanks to Natsumi and the AR Riders he met in his journey remembering him, he finally gains a story and returns to life (Den-O had a similar concept with the memories sustaining people).

Narutaki's backstory obviously wasn't explained, but, from the info shown in the series, he must have met Tsukasa sometime during his original journey and hates him for an unexplained reason. He's not the only one Narutaki is trying to defeat though. He's shown playing around with monsters twice (Ryuuki and Hibiki Worlds), attacking unrelated people without problems.

In the final episode, he says "Decade will destroy all worlds! Destroy All Kamen Riders! And then Kadoya Tsukasa will be destroyed too!", so he seemingly knew about part of the plan to save the worlds, but wanted to use it for his own ends - attacking with the new Super Shocker only when he thought that Decade was dead, hoping that he'd meet no opposition and win. Obviously, it didn't work out due to Tsukasa's return and he ended up defeated.

Considering that, he didn't join Dai-Shocker's offensive because they were acting too soon and were just setting themselves up for a defeat.

 

[Ryuutaros]

NeonZ, that pretty much summed up Decade's story and actually made sense to it. It would've been an excellent story plot if only they executed it right :disappoin

So Kenzaki and Wataru was trying to force Tsukasa to accept his role as a Destroyer so the worlds can be saved. So, Wataru's group is actually the good guys who are trying to save everyone?