Confused with decade's movie...

[NeonZ]

I've just checked the main Tackle/Tsukasa scenes and couldn't find that anywhere. Didn't rewatch the entire movie though, so I might still have missed it.

 

[Igadevil]

1-In episode 29, near the ending, Narutaki is shown watching the Dai-Shocker tower rising in the same location it did during the movie (so, Tsukasa's world), while he says that Decade will disappear in the next world. It's not a "insert movie here" scene, considering how the time of the day is different, but what would Narutaki even be doing there if Tsukasa wasn't heading to that place?

Not really conclusive one way or the other. They could just be reusing an effects shot and tinting it, thinking nobody will notice/care. There's nothing I see in that scene beyond "ooh look, foreshadowing!" Narutaki spouts off the same old stuff and by that point, I don't think anybody was falling for it.

2-In 30 and 31, Tsukasa fails to complain about lacking a world or mention anything about searching for his own world. The previous 4 episodes were filled with references to that, yet it's completely dropped in those 2 final episodes.

Neither does he confirm that he's found it. It's too vague to be taken as definitely being one or the other.

There's the scene with Wataru/Kendate, but Tsukasa just stays silent there. It doesn't prove one point or the other. He neither confirms that he still doesn't know his world, nor he says that he found it and abandoned it.

Yes, as I said my reading of the scene is him admitting that Wataru's right, he doesn't have his own world to care about because he hasn't found it yet. You have a different one. It's too vague to say one of the other.

3-The timeline of Apollogeist's plan. Going only with what the series showed, Apollogeist was defeated in the Amazon World, jumped somewhere else, and, in less than 24 hours, prepared the Kiva VS Blade war scenario AND arranged his marriage to become a Fangire. All the while also working on accelerating the fusion of worlds. If the movie is supposed to go between 29 and 30, Apollogeist gets several days to prepare everything.

We don't know how much time elapses between 29 and 30. It could be hours, days, weeks, minutes, seconds, whatever. We also don't know exactly how much time Tsukasa and co. spent in Amazon's World at the end, or at least I don't recall . Everything Apollo Geist does in the last two episodes could have already been in motion, considering there are Fangire and Undead with Daishocker when it first appears and in Amazon World, but that, like pretty much everything else we're talking about, is just theorizing.

4- Appologeist never calls for Dai-Shocker reinforcements from other worlds. He uses his own life force to bring back a bunch of weakened and seemingly mindless (considering Beetle Fangire) monsters and yet never calls for reinforcements.

Again, I see it as because they're already there. The "Rider War World" is the other worlds colliding and fusing, the Undead, Fangire, etc. are there. Once he's Super Apollo Geist, he (seemingly) doesn't see the need, instead choosing to resurrect some Decade-original villains (made out of the dead other guys, apparently.) That's just a nod to how old villains would get a return in the finales of some old series, plus it makes the final battle more exciting.

Why no Shocker henchmen? Well, they're not in the BLACK RX/BLACK episodes either. I say it's because they're only deployed on a Daishocker-conquered world (Amazon's) or show up around the headquarters (the castle) and for the big movie invasion, but again, like so much else, it's a fan theory. They might have just wanted to spend the yen on stunt men for Riders and monsters, who knows.

5-Episode 30 is the only episode of the series without a "previously on" segment.

Which could be any number of reasons- like they wanted more time for other things in the episode, i.e. the cold open which reflects the opening of episode #1. Considering that with Den-O they actually deliberately set up a lead-out from the movie, how hard would it have been to stick in some movie footage that definitely placed it as being pre-30? Yet they didn't because...?

Also, there's the castle. I've read plenty of goofy theories about that, but nobody can explain it. I read it as a holdover from when the movie was going to be the end, and that the original idea behind the 2010 movie was that it was bridging the resolution of the series cliffhanger, and All Riders, the true ending. That might not make much sense, but then remember that trailer with incredibly exciting scenes not in the final movie! I don't think everybody was on the same page when it came to the end of Decade, sadly.

Yes, there's no direct tie in scene with the movie and the events are never directly referred to, but I think it's pretty clear those 2 last episodes were written with knowledge of the movie's events.

Even so, there's no real attempt to make sense of how the two relate. Which is textbook Yonemura, so there's that. Yeah, you can fanonize fitting God Speed Love into Kabuto's time line, but you've got to do that same for this movie to work!

Even the 2010 movie, which includes a few All Riders references, ALSO mostly ignores it. Tsukasa's sister and his world are never mentioned, the All Riders team up is never mentioned, Tsukasa as Great Leader is never mentioned... Most of the problems that might exist by placing All Riders between 29 and 30, also exist in the 2010 movie, yet the 2010 movie acknowledges All Riders, so it is in continuity.

Sure, it's in continuity, it just doesn't cleanly fit anywhere in the series. Which probably has something to do with being conceived and realized as two very different things. And again, by a writer who doesn't have a very good grasp of how to tie movies and series together anyways.

Really, look at previous episodes. In 26 and 27, no one knew what Dai-Shocker was, nor that there were Rider Worlds beyound RX and Tsukasa was still looking for his world, so the movie obviously couldn't take place there. In 28 and 29, Tsukasa is directly stated to still be looking for his world and Dai-Shocker is still perfectly active, so it can't be during or before those episodes.

I don't see how you can just say that a post 29, pre 30 slot is just as bad as the other ones. It still has problems, like the lack of a tie in scene, but it's pretty much the best point for the movie.

If you ignore the problems and the lack of a tie-in scene, sure. But that takes a lot of ignoring. I think it's much easier to say that All Riders happened in the time line of the series without trying to get all pedantic about exactly where, because if you do, it just falls apart. Yes it's in continuity. Yes it happened, apparently before the 2010 movie. Where exactly? That is just an unanswerable question. It's like placing most of the older Rider movies- if you really agonize over it, most of them don't fit in at all. But nobody cares that much, they just put it as being around "there". If you get down to specific episode numbers though, be prepared to have someone disagreeing with you, like people who put Kamen Rider vs. Shocker between #51 & 52. There's a ton wrong with that, but it can't be after #52 and it can't be earlier. Yet it's in-continuity. Best thing to do is throw up your hands, watch the movie wherever, and call it good. That's what they did!

Heck, some people read Yuusuke's "Daishocker!?" line in All Riders as him having never heard of them before. It's not like they're being mentioned much, if at all, until they appear. So does that mean All Riders is the first time they've ever heard of them? The movie really doesn't jive with the series well at all, despite needing to for the 2010 movie to work.

Again, if you want to put it between 29 and 30, go right ahead. But I'm just saying I disagree. The movie doesn't definitively fit in anywhere, and I hate to say it because I loathe the idea of AU movies as it as. Look, if I had to pick a definitive place, post-Amazon World seems as good as any, but it still just doesn't work enough to plonk it down in the middle and call it good. Not without squinting a helluva lot.

He used to be a great enemy, so assuming that he would kill the Riders was natural. Besides, during the movie, they had another problem on their hands and, judging from Black and RX, the pre-Agito Riders weren't "in" on the plan.

Which again, is your theory. But that's it. You're getting into secret plans and conspiracies among the Riders and honestly, I don't get any sense of that.

If you completely ignore the movies, both of them, it makes enough sense. Wataru and the 'original' Riders tell Tsukasa what to do, he doesn't do it, so in the end they go after him. The whole "they wanted him to destroy them all along" thing just seems like the stupidest plot ever, and it's impossible for me to believe that when All Riders happens amidst all this, nobody ever drops a hint and that magically everyone pre-Ryuki (and Momotaros) are not in on the grand master plan to... get killed? The whole thing just makes no sense.

For something to "Change", you need to destroy the old concept and build a new one. I think that theme worked with Decade's original premise. To "connect everything", the concept of individual unrelated series, used by the Heisei series, would have to be destroyed and replaced by a connection between them.

Including Showa, that theme doesn't make sense, because those series were already connected. At that point, they're just building upon the past, not changing it. That's probably why, in spite of the cameos, the Showa Riders were mostly kept out of the plot. Although their presence there by itself already hurts the theme.

Well, we'll just have to disagree there. I think the idea is fundamentally flawed and it's a detriment to the story that instead of exploiting that, they just followed it through. They could have gone for a really cool angle where by uniting the Riders, Decade saved the worlds, setting everything right and creating the separate TV-iverses we know and love. Instead he needed to turn them into cards, get killed by a Kiva leftover, and then have Seto show up to do a handwave and spout metababble for a few minutes (which, while I liked, was also pretty disappointing.)

If someone had been the grand chess master and set it up so Decade had to destroy the Riders to save everything, as seems to be the case in episode 1, okay.

But that it's Wataru, who then later attacks Decade, presumably gets turned into a trading card, then appears anyway to dump a wheelbarrow of exposition... it really doesn't work. The whole thing really doesn't hold together well at all, and I say that as someone who loves Decade quite a bit. But really- the last movie was good for two things- action and making me appreciate Double. As far as resolving Decade, it just gave us a couple new memes and reaffirmed that Narutaki is a disappointing loser. Tackle was cool, anyway.

But enough going around in circles. Like I said back on the first page: The poor old movie doesn't fit in anywhere, we can go on about it for pages but it makes no difference.

We've done just that, and guess what! It's made no difference. You still think it happens between 29 & 30 for sure. I think that doesn't work and even though the movie does happen, it's impossible to pin it down so it's better to just not worry about it, because Toei sure doesn't. Glad that you have a strong view point and that you're sticking to it, but I just can't see eye-to-eye on this one. And we'll have to just leave it at that.

 

[NeonZ]

Not really conclusive one way or the other.

I think you've misunderstood what I'm trying to show here. My argument is that 30 and 31 are inconclusive one way or another regarding the movie, I'm not saying that they definitely show that the movie happened. If they did show that directly, we wouldn't have this argument.

However, they're the only episodes that are inconclusive regarding the movie. Considering how we know it's in continuity thanks to Movie Wars 2010, All Riders only can take place before those.

We don't know how much time elapses between 29 and 30. It could be hours, days, weeks, minutes, seconds, whatever.

Tsukasa leaves the Amazon World at sunset. They were walking around in the Rider War World at morning, and it was clearly the first time they left the studio there. Using only the tv series, less than one day must have passed, and that's the best case scenario. Some worlds didn't seem to follow the same clock, so they easily might have arrived there even closer to morning already.

The whole "they wanted him to destroy them all along" thing just seems like the stupidest plot ever, and it's impossible for me to believe that when All Riders happens amidst all this, nobody ever drops a hint and that magically everyone pre-Ryuki (and Momotaros) are not in on the grand master plan to... get killed? The whole thing just makes no sense.

I don't think "they wanted him to destroy them all along". That was the only option after most AU Riders disappeared though.

There's no conspiracy, that group had a plan and not every Rider from every single other world knew about it. It's not like every Rider hangs around some Rider club and they were some private group keeping a secret from the others. :sweat:

We see in the tv series that Wataru's group only has Riders from Agito to Kiva. We also see that RX and Black didn't know much about the situation. I don't see how you can assume otherwise, regarding knowledge of those plans, even using only the tv show.

Also, there's the castle. I've read plenty of goofy theories about that, but nobody can explain it.

It's just a random object there only thanks to the fusion of worlds, like everything else in the Rider War World.

I don't know why they decided to include that scene there, but the story explanation regarding the random castle that doesn't do anything is rather obvious.

But that it's Wataru, who then later attacks Decade, presumably gets turned into a trading card, then appears anyway to dump a wheelbarrow of exposition...

He appears less than a minute before Yuusuke and everyone else are shown returning too. It's not that out of place.

then have Seto show up to do a handwave and spout metababble for a few minutes

Wataru mentioned "stories" several times in the first episode. Movie Wars just followed through with it. No one complained about "metababble" at that point.

But really- the last movie was good for two things- action and making me appreciate Double.

I'll wait for the actual DVD rips to definitely judge Begins Night, because some scenes were too dark in the cam rip, but I wasn't very fond of that movie.

Spoiler

At least half of it was wasted on a really badly done mystery, with the Dummy Dopant losing almost every single one of the abilities he had shown before as Death Dopant after his identity is uncovered - like teleportation, flight and also Skull's long ranged attacks... and I generally enjoy Double's tv series.

That might not make much sense, but then remember that trailer with incredibly exciting scenes not in the final movie!

I think Decade's part of Movie Wars mostly gets backlash due to that stupid teaser... In any case, we should have known that those scenes were not intended to be actual movie scenes even before the movie was finished, considering that one blog update.

And, I really didn't like most of the implications of that teaser anyway - evil Riders, Narutaki working with them, a second, real, Tsukasa, probably the true destroyer... Do you really think that an "everything you've been told is a lie!" ending would have been better than what we got?

 

[Igadevil]

Do you really think that an "everything you've been told is a lie!" ending would have been better than what we got?

Yeah. The Decade part of movie war is pretty much a mess, honestly. Good action, and it's got some cool bits, but as far as being the true ending that reveals all... nah. Didn't really do it for me, honestly. Begins Night and the ending made up for it though.

It's one thing to film scenes and then not have them in the movie. The Kiva trailer did that, okay. With Decade though, given the cliffhanger ending, it feels really cheap. Especially since magazines in the months after had coverage based on those scenes.