Batman/Superman Movie Next?

[MattComix]

I think one of the problems boils down to the simple fact that editing has gone straight to hell in Hollywood movies. I'm reading the novelization of Man Of Steel now which is based on the original script. The character stuff has much more room to breathe than it does in the theatrical cut of the movie which while I enjoyed it for the most part suffers some problems IMO not least of which is from wanting too much to hurry up to the action scenes.

So I think there has been some deep cuts made to relevant story material but nobody thought to streamline the action a little bit to make for one, more room to tell the story and two for the fight scenes themselves to more clearly convey what was happening by not feeling the need to cut away every 2-4 seconds in that kind of hyperactive fashion that assumes the audience has the attention span of a gnat on crack.

 

[KingRanger]

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/27898/goyer-talks-superman-batman-film-titles

"So the next film we’re making, we’re already in pre-production, comes out in summer of 2015 and it’s–we’re actually not sure whether the title is Superman vs. Batman or Batman vs. Superman but yes, it’s–that rematch, that combination, the two guys onscreen and that’s happening."

Bleh.

 

[MattComix]

"vs." Now if this were a Sentai movie that would still mean basically team-up but in this context I'm just getting very much that Wrestlemania for geeks vibe I've been dreading about this. Do we have to do some variation of the damn DKR thing?


One would hope DC and Warner would have enough faith in Superman for him to stand on his own in his movie series and to also stop (over) compensating for Batman not having super powers by always giving him the edge in a fight yet it happens in comics and other media in what feels like damn near all the time. Putting aside for a moment the inherent stupidity in having them fight at all and how bad it actually makes Batman look to anyone or any fan who isn't totally and personally invested in the idea that Batman must be able to beat everybody all the time, even his allies and friends.

I'm not trying to be a harbinger of doom and gloom but I am having a "I gotta bad feeling about this" reaction. There's something a little irksome about Superman's needing to be the ambassador of the greater DCU taking precedence over the telling of his own saga. But granted we do live in our weird Bizzaro world where the first Superman movie came out in 1978 yet the X-Men and the Avengers still made it to the screen before Justice League.

 

[Sage Shinigami]

"vs." Now if this were a Sentai movie that would still mean basically team-up but in this context I'm just getting very much that Wrestlemania for geeks vibe I've been dreading about this. Do we have to do some variation of the damn DKR thing?


One would hope DC and Warner would have enough faith in Superman for him to stand on his own in his movie series and to also stop (over) compensating for Batman not having super powers by always giving him the edge in a fight yet it happens in comics and other media in what feels like damn near all the time. Putting aside for a moment the inherent stupidity in having them fight at all and how bad it actually makes Batman look to anyone or any fan who isn't totally and personally invested in the idea that Batman must be able to beat everybody all the time, even his allies and friends.

I'm not trying to be a harbinger of doom and gloom but I am having a "I gotta bad feeling about this" reaction. There's something a little irksome about Superman's needing to be the ambassador of the greater DCU taking precedence over the telling of his own saga. But granted we do live in our weird Bizzaro world where the first Superman movie came out in 1978 yet the X-Men and the Avengers still made it to the screen before Justice League.

In all fairness, if they HAVE to do it (they don't, but still), it's really better if Batman one-ups. Geoff Johns wrote an issue of Flash where he didn't one-up Wally, and it looked...really bad. The scene (and issue) itself was fine, but it was as if they took the criticism that Batman has no purpose in the DCU proper and shined a large circle of bright, neon lights on it.

This is why its honestly best they stop making Batman have an adversarial relationship with any DC hero--either Batman is the "prep time" god, or Batman looks like a bitch in any encounter with someone without powers. Of course, yet again Frank Miller's characterization has made this near impossible without the fanboys screaming foul. It's as if they've forgotten that Batman had about 30 or 40 years where he was a team player, both on the Justice Society, in the Justice League, and in team-up books in general.

I think one of the problems boils down to the simple fact that editing has gone straight to hell in Hollywood movies. I'm reading the novelization of Man Of Steel now which is based on the original script. The character stuff has much more room to breathe than it does in the theatrical cut of the movie which while I enjoyed it for the most part suffers some problems IMO not least of which is from wanting too much to hurry up to the action scenes.

So I think there has been some deep cuts made to relevant story material but nobody thought to streamline the action a little bit to make for one, more room to tell the story and two for the fight scenes themselves to more clearly convey what was happening by not feeling the need to cut away every 2-4 seconds in that kind of hyperactive fashion that assumes the audience has the attention span of a gnat on crack.

It's not editing; its direction. Zack Snyder made all the relevant decisions on that film, and that's why it ended up overly serious and full of disaster porn fight scenes, and why Mark Waid blew a gasket over it when he was watching. Honestly, given your stance on DC's comics for the past few years I was surprised you liked it.

 

[MattComix]

Honestly, given your stance on DC's comics for the past few years I was surprised you liked it.

So was I.

I'll say that my favorite era's of Superman comics are the Bronze Age and the "Post Crisis" era up to around the time of the wedding. Basically when they started trying constantly to top the Death/Return story that era started to go down hill and they really haven't replaced it with anything worthwhile since.

A lot about Man Of Steel worked for me from a "Post Crisis" era perspective, obviously much less so from a Bronze Age one. I bought into the human aspect of the story and also Henry Cavill in the part. I also enjoyed the Krypton stuff and thought that Russel Crowe was a great Jor-El.


The idea of Superman killing Zod as a way to give a dramatic context for his no-killing code (I.E. he's had to make that call before and it was absolutely horrible for him) worked better in the movie IMO than in Byrne's Superman issue no. 22 or the stupid fallout from it that followed. But then that in itself lead into the Exile storyline which was actually the better story and I wish too god they'd just did that in first place. Zod is also the only villain short of Doomsday where that kind of kobyashi maru makes even a lick of sense to me.

It's not something I would have done if it were up to me, I still have some mixed feelings about it because I don't think you necessarily have to dramatically rationalize someone not wanting to kill their enemies but I could see from a writing standpoint how they could make it work. Which is another reason I wanted Superman to have a sequel to himself.

 

[Shougo B'Stard]

It's just sad that Hollywood thinks this is a good idea and that it's going to work when 1) Henry Cavill is still a newb as Superman and 2) it's already not going to hold any weight with a new guy as Batman.

It's also just Warner admitting that Man of Steel didn't get the reaction they wanted and they don't think Superman can sustain his own franchise, so they're going to the gimmick that they think will make a lotta cash, but...c'mon. Crossover movies are usually the last-ditch effort to milk something from a franchise, right before farce.

It's just a dumb idea and pretty depressing that DC can't get their **** together, because I think they have all of the classic heroes, and if they COULD get their **** together, a Justice League movie would blow people away.

Also...I don't like Zack Snyder. I don't know who he thinks he is or why he thinks he's so great, but he's really lower than Brett Ratner to me.

 

[Sage Shinigami]

It's just sad that Hollywood thinks this is a good idea and that it's going to work when 1) Henry Cavill is still a newb as Superman and 2) it's already not going to hold any weight with a new guy as Batman.

It's also just Warner admitting that Man of Steel didn't get the reaction they wanted and they don't think Superman can sustain his own franchise, so they're going to the gimmick that they think will make a lotta cash, but...c'mon. Crossover movies are usually the last-ditch effort to milk something from a franchise, right before farce.

It's just a dumb idea and pretty depressing that DC can't get their **** together, because I think they have all of the classic heroes, and if they COULD get their **** together, a Justice League movie would blow people away.

Also...I don't like Zack Snyder. I don't know who he thinks he is or why he thinks he's so great, but he's really lower than Brett Ratner to me.

He's the guy who's made 300, Watchmen, and now this movie, three movies that when you put their profits together have made Warner Bros. over a billion dollars. So he's fairly successful, even if he's not well-liked.

That said, its interesting that you don't seem to like Man of Steel, since it reminded me of an argument had on here years ago about Batman Begins and how a director should put making a good film over making an faithful film. Man of Steel seems (to me) like a good film. It's got great acting, the plot structure is sound at the very least, and the fight scenes were tops.

...It just feels (to me) like a really shitty Superman film. Devoid of color and hope. They said they weren't doing it tongue-in-cheek at all and were trying to take things as seriously as possible. They weren't lying. Mark Waid has a point: This is a guy who can FLY. He can do the impossible. There REALLY shouldn't be THAT much complaining and superfluous gravitas in a film about
Superman.

As far as your opinion about Warners...eh, that's not it at all. Man of Steel brought in 650 million dollars, and right this moment there are a million people who will argue any point you make about Man of Steel being anything less than excellent. (I'm not one of them, but still.) No, Warner's is totally doing this because they're scared. They see the progress Marvel has made with their films, and they want to get SOME kind of crossover on the silver screen before Avengers 2 comes out and Marvel laps them a second time.

And to be honest, if this announcement had come with the Flash and JL announcements (and a WW and GL one) like they were supposed to, it wouldn't have been so bad. But instead they decided to focus on Batman vs. Superman, to set up this new "team up friendly" Bats. Meh.

 

[MrSteve]

I honestly don't see how people think it's not a good Superman film. And it's not just you, obviously, I've heard it a bunch. I think it's a GREAT Superman film, the only good live action Superman film, and the closest live action representation of Big Blue we've had.

I'm a huge Superman fan and I was very, very happy with the film.

I'm all about a Superman/Batman film and I'm excited for it, but I hope it's not a case of it just being a "vs" movie. I'm sure there will be a confrontation like what always happens when heroes meet, but it better not be the main point of the film. Becoming friends is what the story better be about.

it's already not going to hold any weight with a new guy as Batman.

Yeah because Batman Forever was a box office failure when they got a new actor to be Batman.

It doesn't matter who plays Batman or Superman, they're both the most recognized heroes in the world and their movies will make money no matter what.

I disagree with most of your post, as well. It's totally natural for this to be the progression in what is a bigger DC Movie-verse. Superman and Batman have been having cross overs and team up and been best friends for well over 50 years.. It makes complete sense for them to have a film together at any time, even now. Would I have preferred another solo Man of Steel movie? Sure, but even as a massive Superman fan who doesn't care much about solo Batman, this still makes sense/makes me excited for the possible story they may tell.

I think this is the perfect example of WB getting its **** together. (That's fixing your statement of saying DC needs to get its **** together, DC isn't making these movies. Warner Brothers is. Only just now on Man of Steel and beyond is the creative team in charge of an over all story finally including a comic writer from DC.)

 

[KingRanger]

I honestly don't see how people think it's not a good Superman film. And it's not just you, obviously, I've heard it a bunch. I think it's a GREAT Superman film, the only good live action Superman film, and the closest live action representation of Big Blue we've had.

"The only good live action superman film" and "the closest live action representation of big blue we've had"... wow... :redface2::sly:

 

[MattComix]

the only good live action Superman film, and the closest live action representation of Big Blue we've had.

Nope, sorry. While I may have liked a lot about Man Of Steel but for me it cannot de-throne the first Christopher Reeve film. Cavill's good and I like him a lot, but Chris was the man and when it was all put together he looked like he literally had walked off a page of the comics.

Maybe he wasn't quite as ripped as a Jose Garcia Lopez drawing but in every other respect he embodied that character fully and Donner's film while certainly not without it's own flaws and short comings had such a wonderful heart and epic grandeur to it that brought the character to life.

Hanz Zimmer's score is not bad by any stretch, but with the John Williams music if aliens came here basically asking Earth "What is Superman?" and you could only answer them with music, play the Williams theme and they would understand it completely.