What's so bad about Go-Busters?

[Lynxara]

To me it felt like Escape became weak to being killed

Yeah, see, this is just... this is just not something you want people to end up having to say about your story.

 

[The Slashing Best]

The New Messiah, Enter.

Yeah, see, this is just... this is just not something you want people to end up having to say about your story.

Huh? Are you writing how every time she came back she was weaker, that is untrue (except one time on purpose, read below). She just kept going into her Escape Evolve form due to power reasons.

The first time: Messiah killed her.

The second time: Yellow Buster shot the Flower Unite form with the Lioh Blaster.

The third time: Enter made her weaker this time to test the Go-Busters strength, and in turn; his.

The fourth time: Due to her corrupt data, Enter told her to fight to her hearts content, and evolve. She took this liberally and became Animal Unite, later she changed into Escape Zeta.

So, the only time Escape ever was weak was with Enter making her so that he could test his power on the Go-Busters.

Well, no, Enter totally wanted to improve Messiah. He just felt that if Messiah felt and acted more like him, well, wouldn't that be an improvement? It is if you're Enter, and you've spent the first couple quarters of the show wishing Messiah would understand your plans better. That's why I say that casting Enter in that role makes enough sense.

Enter has a pretty clear motivation, and what he does doesn't actually violate his motivations in the show's first half. Nothing about it is illogical, actually, except the parts that the show kept off-camera. That's why I think even the show's creators knew it was a kludge, but went ahead with it anyway because they thought they could make it work.

No. He states in Mission 47 that he is the new Messiah. I know that if I had a boss that made me do stupid stuff, as soon as he was gone, I would want to be the head of the company and do things my way.

Yeah, but the other two also have superhuman abilities and emotions and feelings? There's no reason to assume Hiromu is better except that he's Red, and in Sentai, Red is Strongest.

Blue Buster is the strongest. Enter did not want that. He wanted Red Buster because he is the one who beat him in Hyper Space.

Man, no. In fiction, you have not actually killed a character if said character not only comes back the next episode, but comes back completely unchanged. Enter and Escape return perfectly intact way too many friggin' times before the plot about Escape getting corrupted gets started. You end up with a show where the heroes look like they beat the villains a half-dozen times except, ha ha, they didn't.

Enter and Escape may not have been damaged when they came back – but they did change. Escape was wiped clean of all memory fighting the Go-Busters, so that caused confusion, and then anger for the Go-Busters. When Enter comes back after Escape crushes him in Mission 44, he has the Messiah Card 07 (or Masato's) inside of him. Also, that is the point of an avatar, they are able to be undamaged, but the main heroes are; that is what make the avatars so deadly.

 

[Lynxara]

Huh? Are you writing how every time she came back she was weaker,

No. Who cares about Escape's power levels? That doesn't matter at all. My problem is that it tends to make action shows really boring when a villain can be "killed" repeatedly, and keep coming back no worse for wear. It makes the heroes look bad, it makes the fights feel inconsequential, and it drains the tension out of the show's conflict. Worst of all, when the heroes do achieve final defeat over the villain, the audience won't care because they've already seen that too many times.

No. He states in Mission 47 that he is the new Messiah. I know that if I had a boss that made me do stupid stuff, as soon as he was gone, I would want to be the head of the company and do things my way.

Right, but as you said, Messiah was never really gone. Enter became Messiah, ergo Messiah still exists within Enter. The two beings became one. Enter brought his personality to Messiah's motivations, by merging their data. But everything Enter ever did was in Messiah's interest, anyway, so this doesn't change anything fundamental about Enter as a character. It just means Enter doesn't have to argue with Messiah to get permission to do things his way anymore.

Blue Buster is the strongest. Enter did not want that. He wanted Red Buster because he is the one who beat him in Hyper Space.

Right, so accepting that is true, then you must concede that if Blue Buster had been in that final battle, he also would've beaten Enter, and so the plot could've been written about him. I think you'd have to concede the same about Yoko. Basically any hero who fought Enter at that point would've won, because that's what the story demanded. So we're back to the plot not really needing to be about Hiromu at all. It's just about him because he's Red.

Escape was wiped clean of all memory fighting the Go-Busters, so that caused confusion, and then anger for the Go-Busters.

Yes, but that was done to her by Enter for his own reasons. It did not happen as a natural consequence of her avatar's projection being destroyed, ergo the fight did not actually change anything about her.

Also, that is the point of an avatar, they are able to be undamaged, but the main heroes are; that is what make the avatars so deadly.

You misspelled "that is what make the avatars so boring." I mean, it's obvious the heroes won't die, or there won't be an episode next week. So the avatars aren't really deadly, they're just obstacles. It's interesting to watch a hero overcome an obstacle... once or twice. By the fifth or sixth time, it's become pretty rote.

 

[The Slashing Best]

Enter, Escape and Convictions.

No. Who cares about Escape's power levels? That doesn't matter at all. My problem is that it tends to make action shows really boring when a villain can be "killed" repeatedly, and keep coming back no worse for wear. It makes the heroes look bad, it makes the fights feel inconsequential, and it drains the tension out of the show's conflict. Worst of all, when the heroes do achieve final defeat over the villain, the audience won't care because they've already seen that too many times.

I guess I don’t really count Escape as a major villain. Because she is an avatar, she is really not capable of being killed – you have to kill the master villain which was Messiah or Enter depending on which episode we are talking about. Messiah assimilated all who came in his path – so the point was not to defeat Escape – but to defeat Enter or Messiah. Escape was merely an artificial avatar made to serve Messiah – not herself.

Right, but as you said, Messiah was never really gone. Enter became Messiah, ergo Messiah still exists within Enter. The two beings became one. Enter brought his personality to Messiah's motivations, by merging their data. But everything Enter ever did was in Messiah's interest, anyway, so this doesn't change anything fundamental about Enter as a character. It just means Enter doesn't have to argue with Messiah to get permission to do things his way anymore.

Using the Messiah Cards to evolve into an entirely new version of Messiah. Enter has many of the powers of his creator. But, Enter surpasses Messiah by being able to assimilate all forms of matter instead of anything inorganic or data-based. He did indeed try to do what Messiah wanted (take over the world), but he also wanted to become the perfect human, Messiah did not want that, he could of carried less.

Right, so accepting that is true, then you must concede that if Blue Buster had been in that final battle, he also would've beaten Enter, and so the plot could've been written about him. I think you'd have to concede the same about Yoko. Basically any hero who fought Enter at that point would've won, because that's what the story demanded. So we're back to the plot not really needing to be about Hiromu at all. It's just about him because he's Red.

Blue Buster did not have his family appear to him in Hyper Space when they tried to tell the Go-Busters to finish off Messiah. If he did somehow get to pilot Ace, he would not have the conviction the other two had. Yellow Buster would have just not have stood a chance. I mean, it could be Hiromu because he is Red, but Utsusemimaru is more passionate than Daigo in Kyoryuger. It is all about passion.

Yes, but that was done to her by Enter for his own reasons. It did not happen as a natural consequence of her avatar's projection being destroyed, ergo the fight did not actually change anything about her.

Again, I guess I don’t really count Escape as a major villain.No matter who or what destroyed her memory, the anger and confusion was still there for the Go-Busters. It did not really matter whether the fighting or Enter’s final blow caused her memory to be wiped out. This was the nature of her back-up. What I am talking about here is that the Escape’s memory being wiped out caused confusion and anger for the Go-Busters.

You misspelled "that is what make the avatars so boring." I mean, it's obvious the heroes won't die, or there won't be an episode next week. So the avatars aren't really deadly, they're just obstacles. It's interesting to watch a hero overcome an obstacle... once or twice. By the fifth or sixth time, it's become pretty rote.

I’m not sure I agree with your statement though. Almost any Superhero has an opponent they battle repeatedly with various outcomes and the battle itself is what makes it interesting. For instance, Batman battled: The Joker, The Penguin, Bane, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze etc. for many, many, many years. Even though he kept fighting the same opponents the battle was always different. He fought these opponents more than 5 or 6 times.
What helped Go-Busters is that the Metaroids always changed within the battles with Escape. Even Escape’s forms and abilities evolved over the course of the show.

Also, in Gorenger Ep. 67: “Crimson Special Attack!! Kirenger Dies at Sunset!”, Kirenger II, dies by Can Opener Mask’s can opener blade. In Battle Fever J Ep. 33: “Cossack Dies for Love”, Kensaku Shiraishi gets gunned down by Egos. Anything is able to happen, at any moment. Maybe one or two Go-Busters could die thanks to Enter and Escape, Massato did indirectly.

 

[Lynxara]

I guess I don’t really count Escape as a major villain.

She's one of the three recurring villains in the show. She's major by default. I could see dismissing her as minor if she was part of an 80s-style commander horde, but otherwise Go-Busters has only two other recurring villains. And those two recurring villains eventually become the same person! This kind of forces Escape into a position where she has to be major, or it doesn't really make any sense for her to exist at all.

Because she is an avatar, she is really not capable of being killed – you have to kill the master villain which was Messiah or Enter depending on which episode we are talking about.

Yeah, but the show doesn't play fair with this. Destroying Messiah in episode 30 doesn't actually destroy any of his avatars. It doesn't even inconvenience them. In fact, it kind of doesn't accomplish anything at all! This contributes to a feeling that the avatars are what they are purely due to plot armor and production convenience, not because it makes the story better.

Blue Buster did not have his family appear to him in Hyper Space when they tried to tell the Go-Busters to finish off Messiah.

But do you know that couldn't have happened? I don't think it's possible to say that. There's no reason why Ryuuji or Yoko couldn't have had a similar motivating vision. They just didn't, because they aren't the main character. Hiromu is, so the writing gives him a dramatic boost to push him onward.

In a better-written show, where Hiromu could be heroic for a more concrete reason than "passion," I think there actually would be a reason why only he could beat Enter. It would be something only he could do, or a consistently-demonstrated character trait that only he could have.

He fought these opponents more than 5 or 6 times.

Yes, but he didn't kill them five or six times each. It is, in fact, a major point of Batman's character that he won't kill his enemy. Not only does that reflect on his personality, but that means it makes sense when the same villains keep coming back to face him.

There have been other Sentai seasons where the heroes clashed with a villain repeatedly. And in those cases, the heroes weren't killing the villain repeatedly, only for them to come back later. Instead, those battles were depicted as inconclusive, usually ending in one side or the other being forced to retreat after taking a brutal beating.

That meant that when the villain died, it felt like it mattered. It felt like the ending of a long and tumultuous conflict. It was a special event that would only happen once, and might even have a tragic element. Maybe by then, you had come to respect or sympathize with that villain. If Enter or Escape or, hell, even Messiah died? Must be Sunday.

Also, in Gorenger Ep. 67: “Crimson Special Attack!! Kirenger Dies at Sunset!â€, Kirenger II, dies by Can Opener Mask’s can opener blade. In Battle Fever J Ep. 33: “Cossack Dies for Loveâ€, Kensaku Shiraishi gets gunned down by Egos. Anything is able to happen, at any moment.

Bad picks, man. Both of those "character deaths" weren't story-driven events, they were done so one actor could leave the cast and be replaced with another. Battle Fever J pulls off a similar stunt with Miss America, but they just say she "went back to America" to introduce her replacement. It's not really the same as, say, Jin's death, which was clearly meant as part of the story because he's not immediately replaced or resurrected.

 

[KingRanger]

I guess I don’t really count Escape as a major villain.

That is like saying you don't count any of the Generals in any sentai as major villains. She is 1 of 3 mains. Her, Enter, and Skullman. How the hell can you say she isn't a major villain?

 

[The Slashing Best]

Enter, his Motives and Parent Loss!

She's one of the three recurring villains in the show. She's major by default. I could see dismissing her as minor if she was part of an 80s-style commander horde, but otherwise Go-Busters has only two other recurring villains. And those two recurring villains eventually become the same person! This kind of forces Escape into a position where she has to be major, or it doesn't really make any sense for her to exist at all.

I am able to compromise with you and agree that Escape was somewhere between a major villain and a minor one. She was one of the main three forces driving the Vaglass that moved the show forward. However, she never had any plan or thought that was for her own benefit. The difference between Enter/Messiah and her is that both Messiah and Enter show that they make their own plans. In the beginning Enter was pretending to go along with Messiah – but really he wanted to take over. Escape’s only mission in this series was to please her "Papa”. The only time she ever showed any thought of her own was when she was defying Enter to please Messiah or please her "Papa”. She never directed that focus on the Go-Busters though – her only mission was to please Messiah. She enjoyed – but did not care who or why she fighting as long as she pleased her "Papa”.

Yeah, but the show doesn't play fair with this. Destroying Messiah in episode 30 doesn't actually destroy any of his avatars. It doesn't even inconvenience them. In fact, it kind of doesn't accomplish anything at all! This contributes to a feeling that the avatars are what they are purely due to plot armor and production convenience, not because it makes the story better.

That was Enter's WHOLE plan! He WANTED Messiah to die, make the Cards, win the "game" he set up, and control Escape thanks to the Cards.

But do you know that couldn't have happened? I don't think it's possible to say that. There's no reason why Ryuuji or Yoko couldn't have had a similar motivating vision. They just didn't, because they aren't the main character. Hiromu is, so the writing gives him a dramatic boost to push him onward.

In a better-written show, where Hiromu could be heroic for a more concrete reason than "passion," I think there actually would be a reason why only he could beat Enter. It would be something only he could do, or a consistently-demonstrated character trait that only he could have.

Yoko did indeed see her parents, she just would have not handled Ace that well. Blue Busters parents have never appeared in the show. How could have Blue Buster come up with the motivation that Hiromu and Yoko would have seeing their parents? Maybe he saw come sort of Megazord being blow up with a rare part in it that he spent years to find, then have Enter be responsible for the destruction of said part? I doubt that would work. It should not cause the same motivation losing your parents and seeing them, knowing that you had to kill the person responsible to their death, which in turn kills them too would cause. Yoko simply did not have the speed or endurance that Hiromu has.

Yes, but he didn't kill them five or six times each. It is, in fact, a major point of Batman's character that he won't kill his enemy. Not only does that reflect on his personality, but that means it makes sense when the same villains keep coming back to face him.

There have been other Sentai seasons where the heroes clashed with a villain repeatedly. And in those cases, the heroes weren't killing the villain repeatedly, only for them to come back later. Instead, those battles were depicted as inconclusive, usually ending in one side or the other being forced to retreat after taking a brutal beating.

That meant that when the villain died, it felt like it mattered. It felt like the ending of a long and tumultuous conflict. It was a special event that would only happen once, and might even have a tragic element. Maybe by then, you had come to respect or sympathize with that villain. If Enter or Escape or, hell, even Messiah died? Must be Sunday.

I enjoyed it when Escape finally died! But, it was nice to see her die those other times, if only the feeling was not dashed when she kept coming back. Then I felt trepidation and anticipation for the Go-Busters to see how they would defeat the next time she came back. Particularly, when she evolved and brought new skills with her new form. That made it exciting to watch!

Bad picks, man. Both of those "character deaths" weren't story-driven events, they were done so one actor could leave the cast and be replaced with another. Battle Fever J pulls off a similar stunt with Miss America, but they just say she "went back to America" to introduce her replacement. It's not really the same as, say, Jin's death, which was clearly meant as part of the story because he's not immediately replaced or resurrected.

What about in Zyuranger Ep. 42: "Burai Dies..."? Or, in Jetman Final Ep.: "Flap Your Wings! Aviators!"?

Skullman.

Messiah.

 

[Toku Prime]

I am able to compromise with you and agree that Escape was somewhere between a major villain and a minor one. She was one of the main three forces driving the Vargas that moved the show forward. However, she never had any plan or thought that was for her own benefit. The difference between Enter/Messiah and her is that both Messiah and Enter show that they make their own plans. In the beginning Enter was pretending to go along with Messiah – but really he wanted to take over. Escape’s only mission in this series was to please her "Papaâ€. The only time she ever showed any thought of her own was when she was defying Enter to please Messiah or please her "Papaâ€. She never directed that focus on the Go-Busters though – her only mission was to please Messiah. She enjoyed – but did not care who or why she fighting as long as she pleased her "Papaâ€.

Wasn't there that rumour that her actress became pregnant during filming? So they might have had to slightly limit what they did with her as the series went on (i.e. replace her with her monster mode all the time), but she's introduced as Enter's equal and even when he becomes the main villain she stays as his right-hand and "sister", so she's certainly a major character. She's a long way from being just a re-occurring character like Hiromu's sister.

 

[lazycoconut]

Wasn't there that rumour that her actress became pregnant during filming? So they might have had to slightly limit what they did with her as the series went on (i.e. replace her with her monster mode all the time), but she's introduced as Enter's equal and even when he becomes the main villain she stays as his right-hand and "sister", so she's certainly a major character. She's a long way from being just a re-occurring character like Hiromu's sister.

I doubt Ayame Misaki was pregnant during the run of the show. She's been in the public eye the whole time (unless she lost a baby, which would be tragic but seems unlikely.) Rumours like that go around all the time - I remember there was one during Shinkenger that Rin Takanashi was pregnant. It seems more likely that Enter and Escape were given monster forms both for marketing reasons and to give the actors time off for other work. I'm not sure what else Misaki had going on during the run of the show but I know Sho Jinnai took some time out to do stuff with D2.

One of the biggest criticisms of Escape on our side of the fandom was that Misaki was dreadful at stunt work, were the Japanese fans saying anything similar? Maybe Toei decided that she should do less action stuff for that reason.

 

[Smilodon]

Misaki Ayame isn't pregnant or wasn't. She's been on variety shows like London Hearts pretty recently, so there's no doubt that she's not pregnant.