SHOWA VS HEISEI: Kamen Rider WAR talk up

[big_j_ny]

Thanks. I wonder why the Showa version is taking so long. It's just an alternate ending, right?

They're waiting for a 2 GB or less encode RAW of the Showa version that they can use before they can fansub it.

 

[HurricaneDragon]

See, if they had just written it so that Fifteen used the Heisei Lock Seed to cause confusion amongst the Showa Riders, or that because that Fifteen used the Heisei Lock Seed against them, the Showa Riders associated their power with being Evil, that would've been MUCH more logical than Ichigo just not liking the new young folk.

This would have been so much more sensible. A big MISUNDERSTANDING straight out of Faiz. :laugh:

There's Tsukasa's line about how gathering the Heisei Riders would be hard and they'd be generally hard to work with, which is later reinforced by the bits that we do see on screen, with Shotaro and Takumi initially refusing to fight. It's another artificial distinction, and that really shouldn't apply in many cases, even in Shotaro's case it's a stretch, but it was there in the movie, so Rider 1 calling the Heisei Riders half hearted in the end isn't out of nowhere. Meanwhile, like I've said, we have the Showa Riders united under Rider 1 from the start, completely focused on their mission. X doesn't hesitate to fight in spite of also attempting to carry on a normal life.

I took Tsukasa's line more to be a personal jab at his own history, along with a jab at Decade in general, since the joke that followed was "I bet you're the one that's hardest to work with of them all!" - I really don't think that was meant to differentiate them that much.

However, I suppose if we assume it's artificial and forced for the sake of the movie, then I... guess it works, but that's sort of a problem when the movie's big plot relies on ignoring the characters... when bringing them together was the whole point.

And you mention the Gaim Riders fighting, but they were quickly crushed by Badan's forces and right at the start Rider 1 had to rescue them twice. Decade was seemingly helpful from the start but then the movie introduces the idea that he was just looking for a place to die for a while so his mind wasn't fully on it either (justifying the half hearted part for him). Resolution and strength seem pretty clearly tied together here, so I guess the idea is that their defeat shows that the Gaim Riders are lacking, which is also why Rider 1 acknowledges Gaim in the Heisei ending for protecting that flower, since it shows his will (and so strength) to protect life.

The Gaim Riders may have been crushed, but they weren't having any issues with heart, which was what I was getting at there - the Showa Riders didn't mention actual combat strength, so I don't think it's fair to bring that into it, especially with minor guys (as far as the movie is concerned) like them.

Though, okay, if we accept resolution = strength, then losing = weak of resolution, but as you said, that just seems forced.

Now, yes, that does clash with how they mostly end up taking out each other to further Rider 1's plans, but... that's just part of Rider 1's plan, after all. So, it's not a contradiction. Only Heisei Riders are shown to be actually taken out by Badan itself too, rather than other Riders as part of Rider 1's plan.

Fair enough.

They help Shu at the end without needing to be convinced to do it, or showing any hesitation, so I don't see how you can get out of the movie that it was pushing forward the idea that the Showa Riders utterly dismiss the dead. When they talk about wanting them back, they were elaborating on what attachment they meant, with Fifteen referenced afterwards as an extreme example of what that leads to.

Who's to say the events of the movie wasn't them getting convinced, though? The Showa Riders explicitly refer to "lingering attachment to the dead" as a bad thing, and I think that in itself is the greater bad thing here. I'm saying there's nothing wrong with the elaboration of what they meant, yet they were saying that the Heisei Riders having that was a fault and why Badan was able to rise - they repeatedly said "it's because of you" to them, after all, which borders on the line of disgusting for me in terms of writing and having such characters say such things.

The part that I believe is artificial about the groups is what you mention there that this attachment to the dead shouldn't be applied to every Heisei Rider either, but, still, that's the idea the movie was pushing. If we had gotten other returning Riders, they'd probably have new elements tied to the movie's theme like Decade's death wish, or Kusaka's new death.

Which is in itself another thing they're forcing, looking at it - they had to alter history to get their plot to work, and didn't touch the Showa Riders' histories (except to conveniently ignore parts I suppose).

And, really, if there's any confusion, I'd say it's just due to the writing. The Japanese aren't less tied to the dead than the West. They even have tradition of home shrines for the dead and such.

Yeah, that's true, which is why this comes off as even stranger now that you remind me.

Regarding Gaim himself, this would be right after he raises himself after his initial shock upon learning about the revelation regarding Yuuya's death, so I think it actually fits pretty well. Obviously he wasn't dominated by it all the time, but it still was something fairly big and recent by then, and almost 20 episodes later we did get an episode showing how much of a ghost that still is to him. It's not like it was all in the past just because he decided to fight.

While true, I do think that because it's immediately after that, that he's still the most "pumped" about that decision than he is currently. Compare the mood in that episode, where he sabotages the Scalar System, to now.

They'd likely help him too, like they do at the end. As soon as the Badan troops appear, Hongo tells Kouta to get out of there with Shu. He wouldn't have done that if they actually wanted to give him to Badan.

I don't know about that... That was really the only line that might lend to that explanation, but with their lines regarding the lead later on, it could also have been Rider 1's "normal" character just showing through as well.

But that's exactly what they're doing in the final scene of the movie according to the Showa ending. The whole point there was just draw out their greatest strength and teach them about a true kind strength, not actually defeat them. Heck, the training they were doing with Skyrider could kill him, and the past Riders gave speeches about putting their lives on the line to gain strength.

The difference there, though, was that they weren't being condescending asses about it with Skyrider. Unless the Showa ending also adds "and everything we've said up until this point was horse crap we said to motivate you," I can't see it.

Well, this movie only exists as it is because the producer noticed that there were 15 vs 15 right now. If it weren't for that, we'd have gotten something different, although probably still involving hero vs hero considering how it's a Shirakura crossover movie.

I really wish they could just drop the hero vs hero idea. :redface2: It's such a waste of potential, and downright disrespectful in this case since this was probably one of the last times, if not the last time, that we'll be seeing some of these Showa characters' actors in these roles.

But they haven't. As has been said extensively in this thread, they really aren't like that. (The Showa Riders, I mean).

Anyway, I have a lot to say about this movie. But I'll wait until this weekend to write the wall of text I have planned.

Exactly this.

Looking forward to that!

 

[ClimaxHeroDen-O]

as far as this movie goes, while the fight scenes were good, the rest of the movie was filled with either things that didn't make sense or unanswered questions.

just to list the ones off the top of my head

-even if it was part of a plan, the excuse the Showa Riders had for fighting the Heisei riders was lame and didn't make any sense
-why was Takumi hung up over Kusaka's death even though he was a total douchebag as he died and when he was trying to come back?
-why did Shu have a tangible body and that weird power?
-where did the Fifteen, Heisei, and Showa Lock Seeds come from?
-how were Gabutyra and DenLiner Gouka able to turn into Ressha?

-and the biggest unanswered question for me: how the heck were the defeated riders being turned into Lock Seeds?!!! every time that happened, I was was thinking "why is that happening?", and though it was later revealed that ZX did it as part of the plan, he still didn't explain how he did that, which drove me up the wall!!

it didn't help that I got majorly annoyed by Imagination Station's subs copying so much of Over-Time/Aesir's stupid translations of certain terms and phrases

 

[NeonZ]

I took Tsukasa's line more to be a personal jab at his own history, along with a jab at Decade in general, since the joke that followed was "I bet you're the one that's hardest to work with of them all!" - I really don't think that was meant to differentiate them that much.

The following scenes do show two examples of Heisei Riders taking some time to be convinced to help, so I don't think it was just a set up for a joke, but it was really meant to be seen a general observation on them, even if it's rather force in Shotaro's case.

Who's to say the events of the movie wasn't them getting convinced, though?

Because they don't acknowledge that at all? There's no indication in that scene that they were newly convinced of anything. It's only your interpretation of a translation of one of their statements that creates a problem there. And, like I said before, we also get Hongo telling Kouta to escape with Shuu in the beginning of the movie when Badan appears.

The idea that they want to destroy everything related to the dead or something like what you imply doesn't line up with those other scenes. What they condemn is an attachment that leads to something like Fifteen, unable to accept death and wanting to bring the dead back. "Lingering attachment" is just one of the possible translation choices they could have used in the subs for "未練". Regret, Reluctance, ruefulness are other translation choices there, which give a stronger sense. I didn't think it was problematic when watching the movie with subs, but, considering this conversation, I guess "lingering attachment" is a bad choice since it implies that even the smallest connection is bad, and that's clearly not what they're talking about there.

and didn't touch the Showa Riders' histories (except to conveniently ignore parts I suppose).

They aren't ignoring anything there though. The fact that they got over and put their personal tragedies and motives for fighting in the past isn't something made up by this special, even the ZX special itself also mentioned it when V3 introduced the Riders to ZX.

-why did Shu have a tangible body and that weird power?

The movie seems to imply that his power is just due to his regret over his last message. When he recovers his memory he specifically says that his "mission" was reversing it. He had a tangible body because he went from the world of the dead to the living world through that fissure. The Badan members do the same thing and all have solid bodies, even the ones supposed to be dead.

The only ghost-like ones were the ones that only appear in the real world through the Reversal machine.

-where did the Fifteen, Heisei, and Showa Lock Seeds come from?

Well, that's like asking where the Reverse machine came from. They're all just technological creations. The Heisei Lockseed and Fifteen from Badan, Showa Lockseed from Rider 1 (who's supposed to be a super genius, although that's rarely used).

 

[Hobo ODST]

-how were Gabutyra and DenLiner Gouka able to turn into Ressha?

At this point, a new power showing up out of nowhere is tradition in these movies, like Fourze's Super Rocket and Super Drill switches in the first SHT and Wizard's Sentai ring in SHTZ.

 

[Scissors]

Anyone else noticed this?




Coincidence or fan-service?

 

[TheLastBlade]

I went into the movie thinking that it'll be worser than the Gaim x Wizard movie, and just as bad as the rest of the Super Taisen movies...

I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!! F-!!!!!!!!! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DemiGomoramon]

I went into the movie thinking that it'll be worser than the Gaim x Wizard movie, and just as bad as the rest of the Super Taisen movies...

I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!! F-!!!!!!!!! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's your opinion.

 

[Judge Faiz]

Don't like the movie all you want, that's your opinion. But don't express it in a way that is going to stretch the page for everyone.

 

[Ryuutaros]

Anyone else noticed this?




Coincidence or fan-service?

Definitely fan service.