SHOWA VS HEISEI: Kamen Rider WAR talk up

[HurricaneDragon]

I don't think it's their lack of kindness, but their lack of effort or strength put onto it, considering Rider 1's attempt to raise Gaim's power during their combat. It's all rather vague though, since the only different scenes in each ending are Rider 1's and Gaim's match up, Narutaki's commentary about it, and their few lines immediately afterwards (when they appear alongside the other Riders, it's all the same for both endings).

The problem with that is that we don't really get to see the supposed lack of effort or strength nor do we really see the supposed superior strength and effort that makes the Showa guys able to say this kind of stuff in the shows, and not really so much in the movie either.

If you look at it from that point of view though, the movie did show the Heisei Riders often losing and being taken down by Badan, also struggling to go back to combat due to various reasons, while the Showa Riders seemed to be united from the start. When Gaim beats Fifteen, it's with a lockseed given to him by Rider 1 that mimics Rider 1's own power. Also, this time, if it weren't for Rider 1's plan, the villains could have killed quite a few Riders (like Ryugen, Zangetsu and Den-O who fall to Badan's forces and would have been just straight up killed if the lockseed plan wasn't in effect - although I guess killing Ryugen wouldn't be a problem :sweat.

The problem with this is that wasn't the case with every Rider, nor was it the case the entire time. None of the Gaim Riders were struggling to go "back" to combat, and many Heisei Riders have no reason to struggle to go "back" to it either (the endings of some would even imply they're still fighting), whereas others still have all their resolve just fine (like Haruto after Wizard/Gaim).

As for the combat itself, the problem with that is that for the movie to have worked the way it did - particularly the Lock Seed plan - the two eras of Riders had to be, for the most part, evenly matched, and as we saw in the fights, they were. With the Fifteen fight, considering Fifteen had the power of every Heisei Rider on his side, I don't think we can really say that that was a fair example of Gaim not having enough strength on his own (which is what was being judged) since... Neither did Fifteen. Sure, he was a villain, but he was using the powers of the heroes, and a lot of them to boot. True, you could argue that that doesn't matter and the end result is Gaim wasn't strong enough, but that applies to Showa Riders too - they've had their share of training montages, and I still fondly recall Skyrider's episode where he got beaten up by the previous Riders to power up.

Ultimately, the implication that this sort of attitude from the Showa Riders gives me is basically summed up as "HOW DARE YOU HEISEI RIDERS NOT BE OLDER AND HOW DARE YOUR SERIES NOT BE LONG OVER SO YOU CAN BE MATURE AND WISE MENTOR FIGURES WHO CAN DO NO WRONG LIKE US" - it's a condescending forced attitude that doesn't really teach anything. Plus, even in the context of the movie, as I said earlier, the Gaim guys (and Decade and Wizard once they got him) were all trying from the start, and the other Heisei Riders that we didn't see actors of we can't say one way or the other.

Their plan would work as long as they could gather the Rider lockseeds. I don't think giving Shu to Badan would be strictly necessary. If Shu hadn't been taken by Badan, they'd likely just have appeared inside their fortress city directly.

Well, that's the thing, in the beginning of the movie, Rider 1 appears when Kouta and Mai have Shu and demands they hand him over, doesn't he? So... What were they going to do with him if not help him like the Heisei Riders were?

Anyway, it's not like they're saying to completely disregard the dead. They still help Shuu in the end after all. During the 7 vs 7 battle, which had to happen anyway to conclude Rider 1's plan by that point, Black specifically mentions wishing that the dead were alive or wanting to bring back the dead as the kind of feeling that makes Badan emerge.

I... don't know about that. What they said specifically about the Heisei Riders was that they had a "lingering attachment to the dead," whereas the "wanting the dead to be alive or wishing to bring them back" seemed to be directed towards Shu's father (as the subject is him in the next line - so it seems like that was a transitional line to me).

To that end? Having a lingering attachment to the dead is... not a bad thing, as I believe the Heisei Riders point out - frankly, I'm pretty sure even the Showa Riders in their own series (I don't just mean V3's revenge, but simply "attachment to the dead") have this too. You shouldn't just not care about the dead once they die. You shouldn't obsess over them, sure, but none of the Heisei Riders were doing this to the extent that Fifteen was - and hell, the timing of this is especially horrible, because between Wizard dealing with his issues and with Gaim having Kachidoki, he's just given a dramatic speech about how he's going to move on.

Even wanting the dead to be alive isn't technically, inherently, a bad thing. That's what happens when you miss people. Now, when you take it to an extreme or deny they're dead at all and, in turn, start wanting to bring them back, that's one thing, but simply wishing they were alive - in other words, wishing someone wasn't dead? That's basically denying these people their humanity - and for god's sake, Fifteen lost his son. His kid was killed. That's a horrible thing to experience. His reaction, while taken to villainous extremes, was still a perfectly understandable one.

The Showa Riders trashing that, however... That's not one at all - at least to me, which is why I tend to think there might be some cultural dissonance going on here, but it's why they also strike me as saying the Heisei Riders should disregard kindness altogether, because simply put, these actions scream that. No empathy, no humanity, none of it - and I realize "we are no longer human" was a big theme of the Showa era series, but the shows still made it clear that the characters still had human hearts. This movie... really makes it seem like those hearts aren't there any more.

Even back in the ZX special, V3 talks about how although many of them started fighting for revenge and personal motivations, they all put it behind them to become Riders. Really, just look at how this movie's portrayed the two groups.

I did say "initially"! The thing is, that applies to a lot of Heisei Riders too - hell, some of them didn't even have personal reasons initially and got them after the fact. The problem is that "Rider" shouldn't mean "inhuman" - it didn't back then, by the way the Showa Riders are acting in a lot of the movie... I dunno.

But, yeah, generally, the grouping in Heisei and Showa by attachment to the dead and "halfhearted feelings" is artificial, and even in the broad strokes painted by the movie, rather questionable.

Agreed.

Though really, separating them at all was a questionable decision in the first place if you ask me.

 

[Dark Kabuto]

The problem with that is that we don't really get to see the supposed lack of effort or strength nor do we really see the supposed superior strength and effort that makes the Showa guys able to say this kind of stuff in the shows, and not really so much in the movie either.

See, if they had just written it so that Fifteen used the Heisei Lock Seed to cause confusion amongst the Showa Riders, or that because that Fifteen used the Heisei Lock Seed against them, the Showa Riders associated their power with being Evil, that would've been MUCH more logical than Ichigo just not liking the new young folk.

 

[NeonZ]

The problem with that is that we don't really get to see the supposed lack of effort or strength nor do we really see the supposed superior strength and effort that makes the Showa guys able to say this kind of stuff in the shows, and not really so much in the movie either.

There's Tsukasa's line about how gathering the Heisei Riders would be hard and they'd be generally hard to work with, which is later reinforced by the bits that we do see on screen, with Shotaro and Takumi initially refusing to fight. It's another artificial distinction, and that really shouldn't apply in many cases, even in Shotaro's case it's a stretch, but it was there in the movie, so Rider 1 calling the Heisei Riders half hearted in the end isn't out of nowhere. Meanwhile, like I've said, we have the Showa Riders united under Rider 1 from the start, completely focused on their mission. X doesn't hesitate to fight in spite of also attempting to carry on a normal life.

And you mention the Gaim Riders fighting, but they were quickly crushed by Badan's forces and right at the start Rider 1 had to rescue them twice. Decade was seemingly helpful from the start but then the movie introduces the idea that he was just looking for a place to die for a while so his mind wasn't fully on it either (justifying the half hearted part for him). Resolution and strength seem pretty clearly tied together here, so I guess the idea is that their defeat shows that the Gaim Riders are lacking, which is also why Rider 1 acknowledges Gaim in the Heisei ending for protecting that flower, since it shows his will (and so strength) to protect life.

Now, yes, that does clash with how they mostly end up taking out each other to further Rider 1's plans, but... that's just part of Rider 1's plan, after all. So, it's not a contradiction. Only Heisei Riders are shown to be actually taken out by Badan itself too, rather than other Riders as part of Rider 1's plan.

I... don't know about that. What they said specifically about the Heisei Riders was that they had a "lingering attachment to the dead," whereas the "wanting the dead to be alive or wishing to bring them back" seemed to be directed towards Shu's father (as the subject is him in the next line - so it seems like that was a transitional line to me).

They help Shu at the end without needing to be convinced to do it, or showing any hesitation, so I don't see how you can get out of the movie that it was pushing forward the idea that the Showa Riders utterly dismiss the dead. When they talk about wanting them back, they were elaborating on what attachment they meant, with Fifteen referenced afterwards as an extreme example of what that leads to.

The part that I believe is artificial about the groups is what you mention there that this attachment to the dead shouldn't be applied to every Heisei Rider either, but, still, that's the idea the movie was pushing. If we had gotten other returning Riders, they'd probably have new elements tied to the movie's theme like Decade's death wish, or Kusaka's new death.

And, really, if there's any confusion, I'd say it's just due to the writing. The Japanese aren't less tied to the dead than the West. They even have tradition of home shrines for the dead and such.

Regarding Gaim himself, this would be right after he raises himself after his initial shock upon learning about the revelation regarding Yuuya's death, so I think it actually fits pretty well. Obviously he wasn't dominated by it all the time, but it still was something fairly big and recent by then, and almost 20 episodes later we did get an episode showing how much of a ghost that still is to him. It's not like it was all in the past just because he decided to fight.

Well, that's the thing, in the beginning of the movie, Rider 1 appears when Kouta and Mai have Shu and demands they hand him over, doesn't he? So... What were they going to do with him if not help him like the Heisei Riders were?

They'd likely help him too, like they do at the end. As soon as the Badan troops appear, Hongo tells Kouta to get out of there with Shu. He wouldn't have done that if they actually wanted to give him to Badan.

True, you could argue that that doesn't matter and the end result is Gaim wasn't strong enough, but that applies to Showa Riders too - they've had their share of training montages, and I still fondly recall Skyrider's episode where he got beaten up by the previous Riders to power up.

But that's exactly what they're doing in the final scene of the movie according to the Showa ending. The whole point there was just draw out their greatest strength and teach them about a true kind strength, not actually defeat them. Heck, the training they were doing with Skyrider could kill him, and the past Riders gave speeches about putting their lives on the line to gain strength.

Though really, separating them at all was a questionable decision in the first place if you ask me.

Well, this movie only exists as it is because the producer noticed that there were 15 vs 15 right now. If it weren't for that, we'd have gotten something different, although probably still involving hero vs hero considering how it's a Shirakura crossover movie.

 

[BLASTMATIC]

regardless here nor there it was an awesome movie

 

[FreedomR8G6B1]

Knowing Decade and Masato were in this...I cussed out the whole movie despite Kamen Rider Joker and Segata Sanshiro

 

[Wing Saber]

While some of the Heisei Rider are no longer human, they haven't distance themselves from humanity. Where as the Showa Riders have. However the idea that the Heisei Riders think that individuals are as important as the world is why the Showa Rider think that they don't qualify as Riders. But it come down to where times have changed, and that the Showa Riders have to accept it.

 

[Khaiden]

While some of the Heisei Rider are no longer human, they haven't distance themselves from humanity. Where as the Showa Riders have. However the idea that the Heisei Riders think that individuals are as important as the world is why the Showa Rider think that they don't qualify as Riders. But it come down to where times have changed, and that the Show Riders have to accept it.

But they haven't. As has been said extensively in this thread, they really aren't like that. (The Showa Riders, I mean).

Anyway, I have a lot to say about this movie. But I'll wait until this weekend to write the wall of text I have planned.

 

[KamenRiderAzrael]

Haven't seen it all the way through yet, but I did find a henshin compilation. I'm waiting for subs, mostly. I got the gist of the plot, but I still wanna be able to follow it fully.

 

[big_j_ny]

Haven't seen it all the way through yet, but I did find a henshin compilation. I'm waiting for subs, mostly. I got the gist of the plot, but I still wanna be able to follow it fully.

Subs for the Heisei version are out (just google "Kamen Rider Wars" and you should find them there on the first page of results)

We're still waiting for the subs for the Showa version

 

[KamenRiderAzrael]

Subs for the Heisei version are out (just google "Kamen Rider Wars" and you should find them there on the first page of results)

We're still waiting for the subs for the Showa version

Thanks. I wonder why the Showa version is taking so long. It's just an alternate ending, right?