Riders and Henshins: New bodies or armor?

Did you completely miss how I pointed out how there's a magazine scan showing W's interior? Or did you just think I was lying?

Yo, captain defensive, calm your ass down. I never said whether or not you were lying. For all i knew you were mistaken, it happens to all of us but seriously that proves nothing at least out of the few bits of katakana i could translate (i honestly don't think you could have found a more pixelated copy of this image if you tried). Once again for all you know thats just the layer between Shotaro and the top layer of armor, unless you have the whole page translated and it proves your point.

It doesn't seem to show anything human under the external armor, in spite of some sections having several cut ins.

Its focusing on the layer in-between the top layer of armor and shotaro, why would it show any of shotaro underneath?

Yet again, even sticking with the show's material, the series features Shotaro's face gaining strange marks while he transforms into W. Why would they do that if the transformation had no internal changes to his body and were only an external armor? IIRC, there were also some Dopant abilities which worked on skin contact and they did work against W and Accel.

God you love rationalizing your toku NeonZ. maybe there is no reason, maybe it was purely done for aesthetics? we don't know, thats not a real argument. and once again we see the issue with "these kind of threads" its just a few people trying to pretend to have a discussion while just trying to convince everyone to perceive inconsequential details their way. also ps that skin contact argument doesn't work as things like that have happened in plenty of toku series. thats purely a suspension of disbelief moment, thats all there is to it.

Did you forget the Joker Extreme attack, where his body splits in half? Even if you believe that W is a completely external transformation, it's still somehow transforming Shotaro's body for some abilities. Same goes to Accel, just look at his bike form.

so.... theres something more reasonable about him going through a metamorphosis and then physically ripping himself in half?? if thats the case where be his organs yo? oh wait its just yellow light in between, obviously this doesn't give credit to either side because the attack was clearly not made with either of those concepts in mind.

It makes much more sense for the initial transformation to modify Shotaro's body (and we know that it happens to some level from the show itself, considering the face lines) into a form that allows him to use the special abilities a normal human body's can't, than for the initial transformation to just summon armor, but then specific attacks later completely transform Shotaro's body from whatever they need to 100% human without any external changes to W itself, and then back to normal human after they're finished, all in a split second.

It makes more sense to you, NeonZ this is your one major issue. You see what you want to see, assume that thats just how it works and then spout it out like everyone thinks the same way. not everything done in tokusatsu has some completely spelled out answer there are plenty of gray spaces, this is one of them. you just need to learn that sometimes you should just learn to let go and realize that its really not that big of a deal either way.

thank god for reasonable folks on here like ziginz, matt comix, and toku prime. you guys are ace:thumbs:
 
I'm trying to grow up to be a grumpy, middle aged writer. I have to be resonable and open to other peoples opinions, otherwise I will never learn anything and just get stuck in a rut. Ruts hurt...they hurt alot. One second you are running along all happy and cheerful, the next second you hit a rut and have to make that choice of whether to get out of it, or get comfortable and build an old cottege right there and then. Old rut cottege people are scary...not that I know any.
 
Its focusing on the layer in-between the top layer of armor and shotaro, why would it show any of shotaro underneath?

Because the cut ins for people who are known to wear armor usually show their clothing underneath and such? Compare with Riderman's:

Cutaway-Riderman.jpg


The cut ins shows him wearing pants underneath and even part of his human arm.

maybe there is no reason, maybe it was purely done for aesthetics? we don't know, thats not a real argument.

also ps that skin contact argument doesn't work as things like that have happened in plenty of toku series.

Why is it not a "real argument"? At best, you can argue that the changes to his body are minimal, but they're directly shown to happen on screen and you've got nothing to deny that.

You're basically now going all "I get to say when a part of the show doesn't count!"

I could see your point if we had seen cases of those abilities working through clothes too, but it's exactly the opposite in this case. For example, vs Utopia, we see Shotaro blocking Utopia's energy absorption ability with his boss' hat, even though he goes on to use it against W CJX in the same episode.

so.... theres something more reasonable about him going through a metamorphosis and then physically ripping himself in half?? if thats the case where be his organs yo?

"Central partition" (The silver line going through W's center, which for some reason isn't mentioned by that scan's text at all, even though its exterior is drawn in there). W's official specs make it clear that it IS always split in half, with an "organ" that exists specifically to connect and coordinate them. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that even his internal body is split, I guess, you could interpret it as just a superficial layer, the description doesn't really make it clear either way.

However, considering how we do see his entire body splitting in the show, you've got one interpretation that makes no sense, and another that lines up with the abilities W is shown to have...

oh wait its just yellow light in between, obviously this doesn't give credit to either side because the attack was clearly not made with either of those concepts in mind.

You claim that I'm trying to read the creator's intentions, and yet you write something like that? The Central Partition is described in the official site as regulating and controlling the flow of "Gaia Force" and coordination of the two parts, so seeing a bunch of energy when it's directly exposed seems pretty consistent.

http://www.tv-asahi.co.jp/double/rider/double.html

It's also consistent with CJX:
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Look what happens inside the Extreme form when, the "central partition" segments move away from each other, creating the Crystal Server:

1273524667905.jpg


Hey, a bunch of energy between them...
[/hide]

Furthermore, the description of the W Driver in the site specifically mentions enhancing/strengthening Shotaro's body with a transformation, rather than just "Shotaro". "翔太郎の肉体を強化変身させ". Why would they say 翔太郎の肉体 rather than just 翔太郎 if it weren't an actual transformation of his body?

If you look at the description of obviously armored Riders, like Fourze, it just mentions "装着者", user, rather than 装着者の肉体/user's body. In addition, the description of the Accel Driver in the official site actually directly mentions "Terui Ryu's body" being transformed and Accel's body being "created", which gives even less space for doubt.

アクセルメモリをスロットインすることで、照井竜の肉体を変化させ、仮面ライダーアクセルのボディを生成する。

It makes more sense to you, NeonZ this is your one major issue. You see what you want to see, assume that thats just how it works and then spout it out like everyone thinks the same way. not everything done in tokusatsu has some completely spelled out answer there are plenty of gray spaces, this is one of them. you just need to learn that sometimes you should just learn to let go and realize that its really not that big of a deal either way.

How am I "assuming' if everything I'm saying has basis in official material? The answer here seems to be spelled out in several different places through several different ways. I'm not trying to explain the changes that go through Shotaro's body when he turns into W, I'm just saying that it must change and there's evidence in the series itself that it's the case, alongside official material outside of it which pretty much states that it's what happens.

However, it seems like you're the kind of person who's only satisfied by direct and simple exposition, disregarding anything else, even to the point that you construct a completely baseless assumption and stick with it even if it just creates more problems (like all the official stuff, even scenes from the show itself, that you've outright dismissed, or wrote them off as "inconsistencies", just because they don't line up with your view).

I know how to differentiate my own viewpoint from what's actually official. For example, I think there are several things in Decade's show that suggest they wanted to make him a cyborg or at least tie his Rider form to Tsukasa himself in some way besides the belt, but I know they never went far enough to make that actually official, and you won't see me actually trying to "prove" that it's the right view, because I know it isn't the official one.

W's case here is different. The opposite idea (W is just a external armor) actually clashes with elements from the show and other official material.
 
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how the hell does that not count? even if he is an AR Rider just like all of the other AR Riders the powers work the exact same. him being from an AR has nothing to do with it literally at all.
 
how the hell does that not count? even if he is an AR Rider just like all of the other AR Riders the powers work the exact same. him being from an AR has nothing to do with it literally at all.

Well, Black RX is an evolution of Black, and in the AR world apparently RX have no connections with Black, being a different hero.
There's no clue that AR Otoya is more than an ordinary human and Dark Kiva's powers do not affect him, differently from "the real" Otoya...

You know, they are AR Worlds, with AR Storylines, and AR characters, they're supposed to be different, even if only a little, so it's not impossible that the powers may be a bit different...
 
http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo60/Kal_Of_Krypton/KamenRiderSkullless.jpg?t=1349285132

Hibiki's Riders could pull the same thing in spite of them being full transformations...

Well, Black RX is an evolution of Black, and in the AR world apparently RX have no connections with Black, being a different hero.

Decade actually got a (blacked out) Black card when he went to the RX world though, before ever putting his feet on Black's...
 

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