Riders and Henshins: New bodies or armor?

[netwatcher]

This was something I've long been thinking about. I've always thought that the Showa riders actual bodies are their rider forms(with the exception of Riderman) and that the fleshy bits just go away when its time for the cyborg bug men to kick butt. Same goes for the 90's trio with Shin being more..showy..with what happens to his fleshy bits. Now, the Heisei riders present something of a conundrum. Kuuga, Agito, G3, Gills, the oni and the Kabuto riders are quite clear on what they are. The rest of them however I am quite curious about. Ryuki seems to use a new body provided by the mirror world(explaining Shinji gaining the muscles necessary for his moves) but the way it materializes could make it armor. Faiz might be armor but the fact that it runs on blood and genes might make it a body. Blade I consider a hybrid(they use the undeads body as armor). I don't know much about Den-o or Kiva's lore to make guesses(but I think Ixa is clearly a suit). Decade, I think, is armor. W, based on how the memories work, may be a body. OOO I'll separate for another thread. Fourze I haven't watched completely so barring any plot twists I missed, it's clearly a suit. Wizard appears to be a new body.

Tl;dr which riders do you think get armor and which do you think get completely new bodies when they henshin? Apologies for the long post.

 

[NeonZ]

This was something I've long been thinking about. I've always thought that the Showa riders actual bodies are their rider forms(with the exception of Riderman) and that the fleshy bits just go away when its time for the cyborg bug men to kick butt.

Showa Riders are kind of problematic in this matter. The original tv series itself doesn't really make it clear. Hongo is shwn helmetless twice, but both times the helmet just doesn't exist, rather than being held by him or something.

If you look at external material though, the official spec descriptions of Rider 1 and 2 seem to use the one from Ishinomori's manga as a basis, and Rider 1's and 2's transformations in the manga were just suits. The belt itself is clearly part of their own bodies though...

On the other hand, V3 talks about the entire structure of his body changing while he transforms, and references his Rider form as his true form to Riderman later in the show. But, then, right afterwards, you've got X, who's actually shown putting together his helmet piece by piece while transforming during most of his series.

There's also Stronger. He's shown to have metallic hands when he removes his gloves in his human form, but the gloves that he gets after actually transforming into Stronger are clearly different from those.

Finally, Amazon, who bites his opponents and is generally very animalistic, seems to be clearly a full transformation, and ZX actually had his human form shown to be just some kind of hologram in his tv special. And of course, Black first turns into a grasshopper monster before going to his actual Rider form, so it's clearly a full body transformation too.

Ryuki seems to use a new body provided by the mirror world(explaining Shinji gaining the muscles necessary for his moves) but the way it materializes could make it armor.

I'd need to watch the episodes again, but I think the episode that showed Kanzaki's research seemed to have some designs for them that made them look like armor. Blade's are directly shown to be armors, like when the helmets break twice in the show. It likely connects to the user's body somehow, considering the whole undead compatibility element, but it's still armor.

W's official specs confirm that it's a full body transformation - but even in the show itself you've got his basic finisher, which really wouldn't work if he were just wearing armor.

 

[MattComix]

Unless otherwise indicated most of the Heisei era Riders are clearly using a form of power armor generated by their respective henshin belts. Kuuga and Agito had internal belts and as such their henshined forms are fighting bodies (for lack of a better term).

Ryuki doesn't have a new body it's just a baseline form of the armor before the contract card bonds him with Dragredder.

With Faiz the Photon Blood is what creates that light effect across the body when he transforms but it's not actually blood of any kind. Faiz does have the weird thing where only people with Orphenoch DNA can use the Rider Gears but there's not a lot of detail given on how the belt knows the difference. It is basically assumed that the belt is capable of reading the DNA of the user.

With Blade they're still using powered armor however continued use does have an effect on the human body.

With W the benefit of his henshin belt is the ability to use the Gaia Memories without mainlining them and becoming addicted to their power as the addict/monster of the week does. Phillip and Shotaro's bodies are not changed into the form of the Memory but rather the powers are filtered through their Rider form which is basically a form of armor. However the catch here is that the belt does let the two become one. Most of the time it's played as Shotaro is the body and Phillip's mind is present kind of like the original Firestorm character in DC Comics dynamic of Professor Stein and Ronnie Raymond. However, Phillip can also control the right side of W. They can also switch which of them is driving.

I think in a way what they chose to do with Heisei is rather than do the Kaizo Ningen concept they opted to push the idea of being a Kamen Rider as a heroic choice. Hongo Takeshi had his free will saved by Midoriawa and he chose to use his powers created for evil to protect humanity. So in Heisei shows the hero usually comes by the henshin belt through some extradordinary circumstance and decides they will use this power to protect humanity. ..and then much of the drama comes from the challenges that choice presents in context.

Wizard is interesting because they kind of did a slight of hand on the whole Kaizo Ningen thing. He was even captured and had some power forced upon him for an evil purpose. He has a Phantom inside him that must be kept in check and apparently because he has done this he is able to use Wizard Driver which still acts like the power armor you usually see in Heisei. So in that respect it's kind of like the Faiz thing. Because he has magic in him he can use the belt but it has to be magic that is being controlled by the user and this is clearly not something just anybody can do.

 

[Glamador]

I haven't seen all of the series yet, so I'll only comment on the ones I know about:

Kuuga, Agito, Gills, Another Agito and the Oni are DEFINITELY full-body transformations. Agito very explicitly states this, and Kuuga is said to be an identical form of transformation as the Grongi which are clearly full-body. This goes for the other Henshins in Agito (except G3, which is a suit) as well. The Oni state that it is a full-body transformation in canon as well.

Blade with the exception of Chalice are suits. The helmets break, you see their faces, suits.

Kiva is hard to tell...it could be half and half considering his Henshin requires a bite from Kivat. I might describe it as a living armor, since his boot has wings but at the same time looks like a boot.

Ryuki...I wager it's a suit. The henshin animation suggests suit and the weaponry is obviously not part of their bodies and yet IS part of the transformation...which also suggests suit.

Double is a full-body transformation. Just from the first episode watching how Luna attacks...pretty obvious you can't do that if your limbs aren't transformed. Even if it's a living suit Luna's limbs deform in ways the human body cannot bend even if you assume the suit is what's extending past the interior limbs.

Fourze, definitely suit. It's a freakin' astronaut outfit.

Wizard...is a puzzler. I say it's a suit. No organic anything has coat tails. Sorry.

 

[LaZerwolfX]

this thread is just... wow.. i'm pretty sure the only "bio-riders" we've ever had were amazon, shin, and gills the rest are suits. Agito and Kuuga might be "bio-riders" but the lines there are pretty blurred. And I guess its possible that the Oni in Hibiki are but i always figured they were suits. But excluding Hibiki riders literally ALL of the riders from Ryuki to Wizard ARE suits.

 

[Burkion]

The way I understand it, with the original three Riders, their bodies transform into their costumes, which are effectively their True Forms. The times we saw Hongo without his helmet, he had yet to fully transform.

X was different, but likely had a similar set up. He just had to finish the transformation manually-putting on the helmet.

Stronger and Tackle are definitely that way, though Tackle could be believed to have a kind of proto form. Stronger's conversion was unfinished, hence why he has exposed cyborg hands in his human disguise, and Tackle didn't even get half done if I remember correctly, thus her form is incomplete and she's not as powerful.

Amazon is obvious.


It's not about being a bio Rider, for the Showa Riders. It's about that robotic form being what they truly are. They are cyborgs, after all. Imagine if a Terminator could freely switch between his flesh and his endo skeleton. That's the basis.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

Not quite. The Showa Riders like Kamen Riders 1 and 2, V3, and X already were changed, so the transformation they have is to change suits. The Kaijin I think are the ones that make it look like it's not that way to people who haven't really watched those. It's because they transform and they have some other ability like shooting vile stuff from their mouths or flying.

I also wouldn't call them "new bodies" because it's like they leave their own bodies to enter a Rider body then they leave it. Double has some of that happening, but it's not quite being one Rider doing that.

Kuuga keeps some of his healing power even in human form and the belt becomes a part of him as well, so he is in a way like the originals.

Agito already has the Agito power inside him, but he accesses it in his transformation.

Ryuki has a suit that gives him powers.

Faiz has a suit that gives him powers.

Kabuto has a suit.

Double actually undergoes a change in his body until the Double Driver disengages. The part that confuses me with Double is that he keeps CycloneJoker after Cockroach takes them until he disengages the transformation.

 

[Burkion]

Not quite. The Showa Riders like Kamen Riders 1 and 2, V3, and X already were changed, so the transformation they have is to change suits. The Kaijin I think are the ones that make it look like it's not that way to people who haven't really watched those. It's because they transform and they have some other ability like shooting vile stuff from their mouths or flying.

I also wouldn't call them "new bodies" because it's like they leave their own bodies to enter a Rider body then they leave it. Double has some of that happening, but it's not quite being one Rider doing that.

Er, they are new bodies. As in, well V3 puts it best. Not a single piece of him is left unaltered. You strip a Rider of his skin and you find machinery, much like with Stronger.

They only appear human. It's their default form to both preserve energy and to act incognito in the human society.

For Ichigo, Niigo and V3, what you see is what you get. It's why they all have some manner of super human ability outside of their Rider forms.

Riderman, on the flip side, puts on a costume.

X is still undetermined to me, as he wasn't made the same way the first three and Stronger was. (And Sky Rider) He was given cybernetic enhancements to save his life by his father.


Kuuga is no longer human in any sense, from the moment he put on the belt. At least, he's as human as the Grongi are. The Kuuga body we see can be considered his true form if you like, as it is one for battle which is what Kuuga is supposed to be-but not what Godai uses Kuuga for.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

Er, they are new bodies. As in, well V3 puts it best. Not a single piece of him is left unaltered. You strip a Rider of his skin and you find machinery, much like with Stronger.

They only appear human. It's their default form to both preserve energy and to act incognito in the human society.

For Ichigo, Niigo and V3, what you see is what you get. It's why they all have some manner of super human ability outside of their Rider forms.

Riderman, on the flip side, puts on a costume.

X is still undetermined to me, as he wasn't made the same way the first three and Stronger was. (And Sky Rider) He was given cybernetic enhancements to save his life by his father.


Kuuga is no longer human in any sense, from the moment he put on the belt. At least, he's as human as the Grongi are. The Kuuga body we see can be considered his true form if you like, as it is one for battle which is what Kuuga is supposed to be-but not what Godai uses Kuuga for.

That's not what he said when he mentioned new bodies. I have no clue which way you're trying to twist things.

X has the same idea going for him as the original Riders, but he is more human.

You're assigning Kuuga as Godai's real body without any explanation. Godai originally was Godai and Kamen Riders revert to their regular forms when defeated because of lack of concentration or lack of energy. Kuuga becomes Godai.

 

[Glamador]

this thread is just... wow.. i'm pretty sure the only "bio-riders" we've ever had were amazon, shin, and gills the rest are suits. Agito and Kuuga might be "bio-riders" but the lines there are pretty blurred. And I guess its possible that the Oni in Hibiki are but i always figured they were suits. But excluding Hibiki riders literally ALL of the riders from Ryuki to Wizard ARE suits.

Agito is identical to Gills and Another Agito. To say he's not a full-body transformation is just silly. It's explained thoroughly in-canon that humans that will "become Agito" are undergoing a biological change.

It is equally thoroughly explained in Kuuga that the Amadam belt has affected a biological change in Godai (and the Grongi). That his suit is a part of his body is without question.

This is starkly contrasted with things like G3, Kabuto, and Blade that are very definitely outer shells that are WORN by the human underneath.


And how do you explain Luna form's powers in Double if it's strictly a suit? Or Kivat's bite? It really isn't as obvious as you make it out to be. That's why we're DISCUSSING it. With REASONS.