[Cartoon] My Little Pony Talkback Thread
- Thread starter Dark Heart
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Pixelphile
Member
Yes. Absolutely. You are 100% correct. Here is my towel. I am throwing it in.
I have no excuses, and I will not make any. I am very, very tired. It's to the point where I genuinely feel that fans in general hurt more than they help when it comes to discourse regarding anything. And fiction at that!
I like my escapist shows almost a little too much, and I used to believe in the myth that rational "discussion" could be had regarding them. I have been proven wrong more times than I can count, at least online. Rarely does it seem to come across as "discussion." I will see people fly off the handle at the tiniest things, coming to conclusions I never dreamed, and call for some kind of suppression. (This happens in video games A LOT.) I have thus been personally conditioned to fly off the handle back. It is a position I would rather take, and have absolutely zero defense for. This is why I don't say what I truly think very often. I know I'm just as bad.
Reread my post and you'll see that I acknowledge the stereotypes (I actually said the show leans into them, and cite types.) I just personally don't think they're very consequential. You cite wishing to discuss "flaws" with the show; I personally see very, very few--probably far fewer than most. I can't draw the best conclusion since I'm not, you know, you--but I'm guessing we disagree. I'm okay with this, especially since I know you to be quite the sane and rational person. My priorities simply lie elsewhere.
Regarding my own hyperbole: I sat back, enjoyed an epsiode immensely, and was then pointed to some threads around the 'net (not just the LJ post, but there's some on Faust's DA account, and the discussion regarding said "issues" on the youtube comments). I instantly flashed back to some really bad moments in past years. I overreacted, fearing the worst (see above), and man, if that offended you, I'm sorry, because I wasn't even thinking of you when I went off. This is why I didn't answer you when you originally replied to my posts: you were the furthest thing from my mind when was in crazy wrath mode. I jumped the gun, especially after finding out that what I saw was scattered at best. I try not to do that a lot, but hey. Not perfect. My bad, folks.
But it does not change my contempt for the concepts I outlined above. And if it's the one thing I love about this show above all else, it's how it's constantly proving me wrong and showing how I too have issues that need to be looked at.
Let this show go on for 3 years, and I might actually learn to not be a contemptuous bastard any more.
Lynxara
Nice post!!
I give you credit for not trotting out the old "How dare you guys talk about a cartoon when real Native Americans have real problems!" strawman.
Otherwise your attempt to tell me what kids' shows I can and can't care about is pretty laughable. So why am I supposed to be more concerned with shows I don't watch over shows I do watch?
I don't see any reason to assume the initial complaints were made by fans of the show, as opposed to a bloggers or other Internet folk who generally criticize of depictions of race in pop culture. I mean, even the LJ post linked above is explaining what the show is about to people before moving on.
Neither did I. Granted, I'm not Native or the target demographic, so I just saw in the episode an awesome skewering of settlers-versus-native cliches.
Now, I have no difficulty imagining that a little Native girl might have found the episode upsetting and confusing if, prior to that episode, her favorite pony was Rainbow Dash and she thought she was just like Rainbow Dash... and then suddenly there's a whole episode about how Rainbow Dash is explicitly unlike her. Yeah, that would be a sadness bomb.
That's not an issue that's really important to fans, but it's important to the target audience, which is typically under-served when it comes to good cartoons. It's worth talking about when the show is still in production and next time the creators might be able to handle things a bit better.
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Burkion
SLICE
Namely the fact that I find your complaints laughable when other fandoms have FAR worse things to complain about.
It's like a poor kid watching a bunch of rich kids arguing about which of their cars is better, while he rides to school on a bike.
Not ENTIRELY the same, but the feeling, at least on my end, is there.
It's like a poor kid watching a bunch of rich kids arguing about which of their cars is better, while he rides to school on a bike.
Not ENTIRELY the same, but the feeling, at least on my end, is there.
Pixelphile
Member
For what it's worth (since today the part of the crazy guy is played by me!
), I completely get you. I've had that kind of feeling numerous times over the years watching fandom arguments go down. Sometimes you just have differently placed priorities based on your experiences in life. I've historically been on the outside looking in and on the inside, looking out though. So I'm completely stone-hearted nowadays. No one is innocent
KouAidou
二番目の翻訳者
I'm sorry that you read a lot of posts by stupid jerks. It's a thing with me; I really dislike it when people react to a given position based solely on what the crazies say, when more sensible discussion is right in front of them. Especially when I'm among those trying to provide the sensible discussion.
The thing is, the Othering issue is pretty important to me, both as a fan and creator. While it won't make me rage in the case of race (because I'm a white girl and part of my privilege is being able to tune that issue out if I don't want to think about it), I don't like seeing it casually dismissed, and I especially don't like seeing it cast as some crazy fucker position when I'm doing my best to explain and talk about it calmly.
Because, see, the Othering that does make me rage is when it's done for gender. That's because I'm a girl who grew up watching boy's cartoons in the 80s, and I'm sure you know how well women were represented in those.
The gendering issue happened a lot in cartoons from the 80s, which featured things like transforming alien robots and tiny blue elves and mutant turtles and cuddly teddy bears getting into adventures and who could, under most circumstances, be said to be genderless. When these characters are genderless (even if they mostly have male voices and behave in male-gendered ways), it doesn't matter if you're a little girl or a little boy, you can still choose to be any of them. If you like school you can identify with the smart one, if you're snarky you can identify with the snarky one, etc.
But here's the problem: a lot of those shows would also then proceed to introduce a "the girl" character to try to "increase diversity." Except what that did was the exact opposite. Now, I can't be Brainy Smurf, or Jokey Smurf, or Grouchy Smurf. I have to be friggin' Smurfette. Once Arcee shows up, I can't be Optimus Prime anymore -- and I don't really care if Arcee is cool and totally sweet and a "strong female character," she's still not friggin' Optimus Prime!
So, while I'm sure this isn't how every member of a cultural minority feels when they watch their escapist kid's entertainment, I have felt that way before and when I see others raging about it, it's very easy for me to understand that feeling. They're not (necessarily) just doing it because they want to find something to complain about in a good show. It's a very real problem, and the fact that it becomes easier to ignore if it doesn't apply to you personally just makes it even more worth discussing.
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Lynxara
Nice post!!
This is really just the old "You should eat your dinner, there are kids starving in Africa!" saw that every mother trotted out in the 80s when a kid didn't want to eat lima beans.
Whether or not I discuss race in MLP isn't going to have any affect on any other fandom's problems, just like whether or not kids ate lima beans was unrelated to starvation in Africa.
Pixelphile
Member
Eh, yeah, I'll give you that. I've seen an equal ratio of views in an equal amount of fandoms, but the fans of this show constantly amaze me how rational they are. Even when they do overthink the show, it tends to be tongue in cheek. I momentarily forgot that.
Okay, yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with this. You know, I actually feared for Rainbow Dash's overall character in that last episode? She seemed to listen to reason even less than usual. I was glad she turned, however abruptly.
As someone who really loves what this show does and wants to see more follow in its handling, I am absolutely willing to discuss it critically. It's just going to be a little tougher for me to do that because I utterly have to fish for flaws given my personal perspective and priorities. ^^;
Not much else I can do or say here outside of give you a thumbs-up and ask for a no-hard-feelings. Kou, I'll get to you in a bit, I just saw your reply pop up.
Blue Saint
Member
Again this is just me so you can probably just ignore this, but there are certain issues that when you are trying to be critical about a work that just can't be contained within the confines of the work itself.
Race is one of these issues. Racial issues form such a large part of the American existence, yet due to fact it makes rather uncomfortable so we tend to forget this or want to. So when you try to be critical with how race is portrayed in a piece of art it is never just about the piece of art. The thing for me is that piece of art can become a causality in the conflict. I mean despite being considered Bob Clampett's masterpiece "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs" (a jazz parody of Disney's Snow White) has had one public viewing since 1968. This is partly the reason I feel that when the subject of race is brought up due how it is handled in a cartoon it should lead to a bigger discussion.
Race is one of these issues. Racial issues form such a large part of the American existence, yet due to fact it makes rather uncomfortable so we tend to forget this or want to. So when you try to be critical with how race is portrayed in a piece of art it is never just about the piece of art. The thing for me is that piece of art can become a causality in the conflict. I mean despite being considered Bob Clampett's masterpiece "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs" (a jazz parody of Disney's Snow White) has had one public viewing since 1968. This is partly the reason I feel that when the subject of race is brought up due how it is handled in a cartoon it should lead to a bigger discussion.
Pixelphile
Member
Hide tag used, as with anything I write that ends up being a book in length. Whatever did I do before this?
[hide]I actually had to look up "Othering" prior to writing this. You know what? I other a LOT; especially in the past five years. Gonna try and put a lid on that, but that's a subject for another time. Anyway!
The trouble is, I think, that a lot of things are discussed without having much thought being put into it, thus elevating it to Crazy Fucker status. The fast-paced nature of the Internet allows, for better or worse, people to sound off about whatever they want, however they want, laced with whatever connotations they want without actually needing to completely think their position through first. Sure, there's something to be said about the honesty of personal opinion from the heart, but there's just as much to be said about letting things sit and reading through opposing viewpoints first. Rarely do I state a concrete critical personal viewpoint because I always allow it to change with new input.
And because when I do, this happens.
It's been so long since I've watched shows with that kind of lack of baggage, and this largely brings it all back. There's a small part of me that wishes Friendship is Magic would just keep things to horses and horse-spinoffs, but I like what the new species bring to the table. I'm willing to toss the dice and see where this takes us.
Like, okay, take Friendship is Magic. Outside of not being a girl, I identify completely and utterly with Twilight in every way, straight up. Personality. Penchant for knowledge. Somewhat sardonic outlook on life and other people. All of it. Not even going to hide it.
Now there are male characters on this show. They are, however, largely marginalized, leaving Spike as the only real male mainliner. I'll admit this isn't as extreme as Smurfs or Transformers, where you really had only one female the majority of the time, but I don't feel the need to force myself to attach to Spike just cause he's "the dude," awesome as Spike may be.
Unfortunately, this may hold different context during formative years, and I guess I've had the privilege to not really run up across this kind of situation as a kid. I will NOT try to stop you from shedding some light on this perspective if you feel the need to do so.
And I stepped back, looked at what just happened, and decided that, if in the face of all that was there, if no red flags were raised for me in the end, if it actually ended up being one of my favorite episodes then, shoot, this show has to be doing something right. Maybe they'll hit a chord with me when the show introduces the inevitable "homeboy pony." Knowing my luck, though, I'd probably like her, too :laugh:
I'm completely willing to discuss said "hard-hitting" issues in terms of a kids' cartoon show. I'm a crazy fannish guy at heart--I definitely contain the capability! But due to past experiences, I'll usually bow out or just go "wait, what" unless I'm quickly and soundly convinced by the other party that said discussion is merited. Because yeah, I've come up against way too many examples of irrationality by this point, and it's harder for me to realize when I'm seeing voices of reason (i.e. just about everyone in this thread). It's a personal thing.
Apologies again.
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[hide]I actually had to look up "Othering" prior to writing this. You know what? I other a LOT; especially in the past five years. Gonna try and put a lid on that, but that's a subject for another time. Anyway!
Yeah, I've been there. Eventually I gave up and distanced myself from as much discussion as possible, not deeming the energy to be worth it, so you're one up on me.
The trouble is, I think, that a lot of things are discussed without having much thought being put into it, thus elevating it to Crazy Fucker status. The fast-paced nature of the Internet allows, for better or worse, people to sound off about whatever they want, however they want, laced with whatever connotations they want without actually needing to completely think their position through first. Sure, there's something to be said about the honesty of personal opinion from the heart, but there's just as much to be said about letting things sit and reading through opposing viewpoints first. Rarely do I state a concrete critical personal viewpoint because I always allow it to change with new input.
And because when I do, this happens.
As a dude who absorbed a lot of "girl-oriented" material growing up (I didn't know it WAS, mind you, I just treated it like any other) and still does now? You bet your ass I do. ^^ It's gotten better, but there's definitely still this weird nebulous split going on.
You are absolutely right and, you know, I miss this so much. People will harp on "furry" or whatever nowadays, but when you have non-human characters (robots, anthropomorphs, sea creatures, slightly different "humanoids," space aliens, what have you), you avoid just so much headache right off the bat than when human characters are used. Keeping things to color schemes that inconsistent to Earth human colors just helps all the more. Then you can just concentrate on things like the substance given to the characters, and the world, and the situations that pop up.
It's been so long since I've watched shows with that kind of lack of baggage, and this largely brings it all back. There's a small part of me that wishes Friendship is Magic would just keep things to horses and horse-spinoffs, but I like what the new species bring to the table. I'm willing to toss the dice and see where this takes us.
Here's the weird thing--and please keep in mind that I'm a guy. It could just be different for me. I completely get where you're coming from and was nodding in agreement reading that whole paragraph... but. I do wonder why people--even kids--would take this approach.
Like, okay, take Friendship is Magic. Outside of not being a girl, I identify completely and utterly with Twilight in every way, straight up. Personality. Penchant for knowledge. Somewhat sardonic outlook on life and other people. All of it. Not even going to hide it.
Now there are male characters on this show. They are, however, largely marginalized, leaving Spike as the only real male mainliner. I'll admit this isn't as extreme as Smurfs or Transformers, where you really had only one female the majority of the time, but I don't feel the need to force myself to attach to Spike just cause he's "the dude," awesome as Spike may be.
Unfortunately, this may hold different context during formative years, and I guess I've had the privilege to not really run up across this kind of situation as a kid. I will NOT try to stop you from shedding some light on this perspective if you feel the need to do so.
That's just it. I'm also a cultural minority. When the Zecora episode hit, that would have been my time to cast a lazy eyebrow towards Faust & Co. if I deemed it necessary. I didn't. I tried. I couldn't.
And I stepped back, looked at what just happened, and decided that, if in the face of all that was there, if no red flags were raised for me in the end, if it actually ended up being one of my favorite episodes then, shoot, this show has to be doing something right. Maybe they'll hit a chord with me when the show introduces the inevitable "homeboy pony." Knowing my luck, though, I'd probably like her, too :laugh:
I'm completely willing to discuss said "hard-hitting" issues in terms of a kids' cartoon show. I'm a crazy fannish guy at heart--I definitely contain the capability! But due to past experiences, I'll usually bow out or just go "wait, what" unless I'm quickly and soundly convinced by the other party that said discussion is merited. Because yeah, I've come up against way too many examples of irrationality by this point, and it's harder for me to realize when I'm seeing voices of reason (i.e. just about everyone in this thread). It's a personal thing.
Apologies again.
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