If shows like Kuuga and Agito had aired today

[SamuraiEchidna]

Ah, I love questions like this. I ponder them myself many times, never really asking them out loud because I am shy like that. Never really want to start a conversation unless I feel like it has some genuinely good discussion material behind it. Sometimes, I don't always succeed at that.

Honest, I worry that they would add the gimmicks you see in today shows.

Early Heisei KR shows were sort of scifi J dramas, it wasn't until maybe Ryuuki or Blade that they started pushing more commercial aspects within the shows, which lead to more transformation gadgets, powers and such.

I can't really see that stuff work well with Kuuga, a case can be made for Agito but the heavy comedy styling would clash with the overall tone that made Agito so memorable at spots.

I kind of see where you are coming from, but really it's all about the social aspect of it.

Those first few years of Heisei were a social gamble. Ishinomori was dead. Toei wanted to keep Kamen Rider going just like with Super Sentai, but wasn't sure how they could do it on their own while still doing it right. Kuuga is the poster child of what they were trying to do. They wanted to prove they could make a Kamen Rider that was different, yet still every bit just as good as (if not better than) the Kamen Riders that came before it. Probably why shows like Kuuga and many early Heisei Riders had such mixed reactions with long term fans.

I'd say everything from Kuuga to Ryuki really shows the potential of what toku could be. Something that is more of a drama with super hero and scifi elements thrown in. But by Faiz and Blade, and especially everything else after Hibiki, Kamen Rider pretty much found its groove. Just enough for fans of all ages, plenty of things to market and make money off of, and making sure they have just a little more drama or seriousness than competing shows like Super Sentai. I am sure by now that a lot of thought, experimenting, and patience went into developing the Heisei era, and Kamen Rider is probably one of Toei's love children by now. If I remember correctly, they were skeptical about letting a western company try again when Kamen Rider Dragon Knight was pitched to them.

 

[kokowaks]

i think they were skeptical due to the "masked rider" effect...

right now, i think the franchise is just mostly about toys and such.. when the see the audience favoring childish themes they would feed it with all the cheesy, childish stuff they can give as long as the ratings and sales don't go down. I don't blame them. I'm just hoping that the audience's trend would change again back to the serious stuff cause that's were the rider franchise is at best :buttrock:

 

[Toku Prime]

Those first few years of Heisei were a social gamble. Ishinomori was dead. Toei wanted to keep Kamen Rider going just like with Super Sentai, but wasn't sure how they could do it on their own while still doing it right. Kuuga is the poster child of what they were trying to do.

I don't think we can call it the poster child. IIRC Kuuga was advertised as being based on notes Ishinomori had left behind for an idea he had for a 30th anniversary Rider. I don't think it's known what those notes were or to what extent they influenced Kuuga, but it wasn't a 100% Ishinomori-free creation.

If I remember correctly, they were skeptical about letting a western company try again when Kamen Rider Dragon Knight was pitched to them.

Again, supposedly Ishinomori's doing. The story goes that he saw a little bit of Saban's Masked Rider and was so appalled at what they'd done to Black RX that he decided to never again authorise a Western adaptation, and as Ishinomori Productions are co-owners of the Kamen Rider franchise along with Toei, he had the authority to do this. After he died Ishinomori Productions became the property of his family (acting as his estate) and they continued this policy. Modern Rider shows are still officially co-owned by Toei and Ishinomori Productions. The creators of Dragon Knight supposedly had to go to Japan to convince his family that they were making something good in order to get the licensing rights for Ryuki.

right now, i think the franchise is just mostly about toys and such.. when the see the audience favoring childish themes they would feed it with all the cheesy, childish stuff they can give as long as the ratings and sales don't go down. I don't blame them. I'm just hoping that the audience's trend would change again back to the serious stuff cause that's were the rider franchise is at best :buttrock:

Let's be honest, Kamen Rider wouldn't have been commissioned back then if the idea pitched was something like Den-O or Fourze, but NOT because of "quality". That timeslot was occupied by the last remnents of the Metal Hero series, which by all accounts had become a very kiddy "robot buddy" show (insert your own Go-Busters reference here if you so wish). Kuuga was an attempt to do something different to that. If they'd wanted something light and kid-friendly with lots of toys, they'd have continued with the Metal Hero series or put a cartoon there.

Equally, had the series not changed, it likely wouldn't be here any longer. Just about every retelling of Hibiki's origins begins with "Toei were originally going to cancel the series after the end of Blade". The controversies of Hibiki (both when it first came out and then when it was retooled) demonstrated that there was still demand out there for the franchise, so Toei created Kabuto, which went back to the "safe" option of a classic insect theme and pushed Gattack along with Kabuto to create a modern "double riders", but didn't exactly rejuvinate the franchise. Like it or not, Den-O was a massive milestone, and the new direction put enough wind back in the franchise's sails to keep it going. True enough there's been a lot more toy-related content since Den-O, but all that show did was put its' hands up and admit that Kamen Rider had been about that for a long time already. Toy belts have been sold since the original series, Bandai have been co-producers since the ZO movie, and as I recall we got a lot of close-up shots whenever Kuuga pulled out his Pegasus Bowgun or Ryuki used a card.

 

[Glamador]

To be fair the close-ups are not JUST there for the merchandising benefit. It's also a sweet 'riders-eye-view' of the equipment and a general "look at how kick ASS that thing is!" moment. Always gives Glam chills when he remembers Kuuga's bowgun close-up.

And quite truly, Hibiki ranks very highly on my personal list. Probably...4th, maybe 5th. Might get bumped down to 6th once Glam gets to W, but for now it's top 5 for sure.

Speaking of gimmicks and their effect on quality though...Blade and Ryuki's cards. They were an awful, awful, awful idea. Card-based activation pidgeon-holes the abilities into "set-piece" moments where you know exactly what you're getting every time. It got to be so bad by the end of Ryuki that Glam ended up watching the eps leading up to the finale while browsing the internet and hardly looking at the show b/c it felt like he'd seen 70% of the episode 100 times before. Same with Blade.

CARDS DON'T WORK. Medals. Memories. Switches. Ring. Keys. THOSE work.

 

[Hell Kaiser Andy]

It was a fine system, though Ryuki's take was a bit odd (As they just drew and it was seemingly useful) where as Blade and Decade/DiEnd both pick from their "collection".

 

[Black Fang]

CARDS DON'T WORK. Medals. Memories. Switches. Ring. Keys. THOSE work.

How? They all operate on the same idea: insert things into other things to make stuff work. It's all klutzy. I don't see how cards are so much worse. At least with Ryuki and Blade the cards disappeared after use; with W through Wizard you have to actively remove stuff on your belt to replace with new stuff, and sometimes with no place to store extra items.

However I will grant that for Ryuki, the show could have removed the cards will little detriment.

 

[Glamador]

How? They all operate on the same idea: insert things into other things to make stuff work.

Nooooot quite. The cards in Ryuki/Blade (but not Decade) make specific things happen. But the medals, memories, switches, and rings effect a stylistic change with a host of possible actions available from there.

Perhaps Glam was hasty in saying that cards, as an object, don't work. If they worked the same way the switches or rings did, where they simply activate an ability instead of performing a rote action, then they'd be the same. And that'd be okay.


....how did Glam get to talking about jank card activated attacks anyway? Oh yeah that sentence about card close-ups.

Does anyone know who the action coordinators/directors were for Ryuki and Blade? Their action styles seemed remarkably similar.

 

[Artic_Rival]

If Kuuga aired now, he'd have the personality of Onodera Yuusuke, the allies would have one quirk about them that will never change (one's perky as ****, another's a jerk, etc.), One of his allies will not be human and die, only to be brought back at the last minute via asspulled reasons, Daguva would sit with his thumbs up his ass and do jackshit until the final episode. Let's see... what else? Oh right, the horrific shoehorning of this "Foundation X" that gets foreshadowed like it's the next Shocker and will have an influence for the next show, and nothing. fucking. happens.

 

[travisdearly]

one thing i noticed while reading this thread and others is the complaint that nothing happens in some rider shows after a certain point and sometimes they dont wrap up plot elements.

maybe the super sentai and rider shows need to do a smaller number of eps per series. instead of 48-51 eps maybe it should be 26-32 or even 40 at the most.

less eps might mean more character development, more plot development and less filler eps.

or they need to take a soap opera approach and break the series down into story arcs. if you have 52 eps then maybe 2 story arcs 26 eps each or 4 story arcs at 13 eps each.

just food for thought.

 

[Berty]

I spent years really not realizing that I was one of the few people who saw Jetman the year when it was aired. Saw it and compulsively ran around gathering really poor copies on VHS.

What would happen? Well, people would be ASTOUNDED at a show where there was only ONE Kamen Rider! They would drool and worship Odagiri, whine about the lack of inappropriately dressed women, and want to bed Ichijo... oh. That may have just been me.