Doggy Kruger
Member
As long as Gambit is a main player in X-men 4 I will be happy.
X-Men 3: The Last Stand - Talkback *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Mega Ranger
- Start date
Skyknight
Lurker
Red Wind Ranger said:
Wow, you just proved how LITTLE of a Marvel comics fan you actually are with that bone-headed statement.
The X-Men are'nt typical superheros, none of what Stan Lee created was ever a typical superhero comic, everything he did reflected on social or personal issues in society and people. A depth of realism added to escapism. Whenever Spider-Man gained cosmic powers, it was dumb, because that's not him, his is the life forever walking the edges of society, hated or revered if the circumstances depend on it, this realist setting mixed in with fictious elements that were grounded more or less down to earth
When you bend that format for a quick buck, you betray the very core of what makes those characters appealing. Maximum Carnage is the same, nothing but fourtreen issues of mindless slaughter and a cheap video game commercial, but I bet you loved it because "Carnage Iz Coolz", when he's got less depth than Mickey Mouse's rationlity when working in a Sulphur lab.
You want a good X-Men story set in space? Try the first five issues of X-Men and "Fatal Attractions", hell let's go for the X-Sentinal arc before the shitty original Phoenix saga even began. That did'nt border on cosmic power bollocks, that was straight-up action that ended with a nice Wrath of Khan set-up for a possible ascension on Jean's lonesome.
And Endsong was rubbish and did little but FURTHER confuse fans, the last good story about Phoenix was when Xorneto gave her a fracking electrormagnetic stroke.
laudre
Member
Please. Claremont is the most overrated thing to ever happen to X-Men. He brought commercial success to the franchise, which is something I'll give him credit for, but calling what he wrote a soap opera would be an insult to soap operas.
When I started reading X titles sporadically in the post-Claremont era, I kept hearing all these things about how Claremont was the best thing since sliced bread. I cut my comics fan teeth on a mix of Silver Age stuff and then followed it buy reading writers like Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, and Warren Ellis, and then Mark Waid and now Brian Michael Bendis and Geoff Johns -- I have pretty high standards for writing, and high expectations for respect for the Silver Age and the Golden Age.
So when X-Treme X-Men came out, I said, "Cool! I can see what everyone's been talking about for ages!"
I got my copy of the first issue, and was blown away by the gorgeousness of the art. Then I started reading...
... and was horrified. It was a train wreck; godawful dialogue, extended soliloquies in the middle of combat, stupid and annoying plotting. Well, I thought. Chris Claremont must've lost his legendary touch, I thought.
So I finally went out and hunted down some Claremont-era X-comics.
And it was exactly the same. The same ludicrous dialogue, the same speechifying in the middle of combat, the same inane and insulting plotting -- it was like every bad movie I've ever watched, splattered all over the comic page. Claremont is a terrible comics writer, for all the commercial success he brought to the line.
Compare that to Millar's Ultimate storylines. I haven't read the entirety of what's been published to date, but he creates vastly better characterizations with maybe a third the dialogue, his plotting is competent and sometimes even superb, and most of all it's coherent and accessible. I poke around online to read about what's happening in the main continuity with my various favorite characters... and I get a headache. Sometimes it's even worse than the jokes about Marvel death and whatnot; at least by playing outside the main continuity, Millar has the freedom he needs to tell a much better story. And the ability to plan ahead much better than happened in the past.
And then there's Ultimate Spider-Man; the only gripe I've had in all of what I've read has been Gwen Stacy's story not being as poignant and painful as the original.
When I started reading X titles sporadically in the post-Claremont era, I kept hearing all these things about how Claremont was the best thing since sliced bread. I cut my comics fan teeth on a mix of Silver Age stuff and then followed it buy reading writers like Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, and Warren Ellis, and then Mark Waid and now Brian Michael Bendis and Geoff Johns -- I have pretty high standards for writing, and high expectations for respect for the Silver Age and the Golden Age.
So when X-Treme X-Men came out, I said, "Cool! I can see what everyone's been talking about for ages!"
I got my copy of the first issue, and was blown away by the gorgeousness of the art. Then I started reading...
... and was horrified. It was a train wreck; godawful dialogue, extended soliloquies in the middle of combat, stupid and annoying plotting. Well, I thought. Chris Claremont must've lost his legendary touch, I thought.
So I finally went out and hunted down some Claremont-era X-comics.
And it was exactly the same. The same ludicrous dialogue, the same speechifying in the middle of combat, the same inane and insulting plotting -- it was like every bad movie I've ever watched, splattered all over the comic page. Claremont is a terrible comics writer, for all the commercial success he brought to the line.
Compare that to Millar's Ultimate storylines. I haven't read the entirety of what's been published to date, but he creates vastly better characterizations with maybe a third the dialogue, his plotting is competent and sometimes even superb, and most of all it's coherent and accessible. I poke around online to read about what's happening in the main continuity with my various favorite characters... and I get a headache. Sometimes it's even worse than the jokes about Marvel death and whatnot; at least by playing outside the main continuity, Millar has the freedom he needs to tell a much better story. And the ability to plan ahead much better than happened in the past.
And then there's Ultimate Spider-Man; the only gripe I've had in all of what I've read has been Gwen Stacy's story not being as poignant and painful as the original.
Skyknight
Lurker
Bendis admitted that he had no clue what to do with Gwen by the time he killed her though.
I don't beleive Claremont's overrated, but he definatly needs new ideas, instead of rehashing the old ones time and again, I am done with "powerless goody goody I respect Charles" Magneto, Morrison's Xorneto was a throwback to the days of Fatal Attractions and Claremont's earlier Magneto storylines where he was just a murderous badass.
WHERE is the guy who ripped Wolverine's adiantium out of his body? Not since the days of Planet X, and that was a flipping retcon, has Magneto been that well handled.
I don't beleive Claremont's overrated, but he definatly needs new ideas, instead of rehashing the old ones time and again, I am done with "powerless goody goody I respect Charles" Magneto, Morrison's Xorneto was a throwback to the days of Fatal Attractions and Claremont's earlier Magneto storylines where he was just a murderous badass.
WHERE is the guy who ripped Wolverine's adiantium out of his body? Not since the days of Planet X, and that was a flipping retcon, has Magneto been that well handled.
Ragna "D" BloodEdge
By the Power of Gaia!!!
I admit I didn't like Scott Lobdell when he first started writing X-Men, but that was due mostly to the fact that I wasn't really familiar with his work and I was just getting used to John Byrne being in the driver's seat for only like--2 issues before he took over. But he--along with Fabian Nicieza--did some amazing work in the time he was there, and he did the one thing I wish Chris had done--he got Scott and Jean down the aisle. Finally.
SaikoDragon
It's Judgement Time!
I just got back from seeing the movie. I LOVED IT. It wasnt the best but man Im a sucker for these kinds of movies. I was really into it. The scene with Phoenix and Charles was a tear jerker for me. That was a very... very awesome scene. The only parts that bugged me were:
-No mention of Night crawler at all. I mean I still dont understand why he wasnt in this movie, but to not even mention him at all? A little line about where Nightcrawler was would have been nice. He was a great character and to see him absent is crap.
-Kitty & Kid: What happened to them? Last we see Kitty and the Cure Kid they are running away from the Juggsy. Then... nothing. We dont see much of them at all.
-Cyclops is shafted again: Man... I feel so fucking bad for that actor who plays Cyclops. It's a great character with so much potential, the actor plays him extremely well and he's written off like a chump. He got shafted in part 2 and now in part 3. I feel bad for him
-The ending was way too quick. I mean how do you get peace out of that small war? There was no conclusions really. I dont think the war would technically be over. There would still be prejudice, still be mutants out there using their powers for evil or misuse.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ok so now the juicey part. Just what the **** is Xavier? What IS he. Seriously that ending gives you only an inkling of how long he's might have lived. Has he been transfering his conscience from one mind to another to preserve himself? Was that bald headed host of a body really his original body? If his mind is ancient it would explain why he's so powerful.
I mean he brought up the subject... "Is it moral to transfer subconscience" or something like that. I wonder if Xavier was hinting that he himself has done so already... I mean... It's just a mind **** if you think about it for a while.
I loved the part when Magneto stood up for charles.
And holy mother, Mystique is HOT in human form. I felt so bad for her. She gave everything for Magneto and she got left in the cold.
Even though Magneto was given the cure, unsurprisingly it looks like he retained a bit of his power.
I think this ending was supposed to prove that there IS no real cure for Mutation. Only a supressant. That serum was able to supress his powers but they were supressed before... And he grew to use it as a master. I dont think there could ever be a cure and perhaps this ending proves so.
I'm very dissapointed that GAMBIT DIDNT SHOW UP AT ALL!! WHAT THE ****!! I thought people said Gambit was getting a small cameo?? But NOTHING. Nada. What the hell. Ugh... UGH... just... **** them.
I loved Spike... omfg I wish he had more lines and more of a role in the film. That actor was such a kick ass Spike. Asian suits the persona very well. Im sad Psyloke practically didnt get to do anything nor mentioned. She's just there.
=-=-=-=-=
I loved the movie. I hope there's a 4th one but I wouldnt mind if there wasnt.
-No mention of Night crawler at all. I mean I still dont understand why he wasnt in this movie, but to not even mention him at all? A little line about where Nightcrawler was would have been nice. He was a great character and to see him absent is crap.
-Kitty & Kid: What happened to them? Last we see Kitty and the Cure Kid they are running away from the Juggsy. Then... nothing. We dont see much of them at all.
-Cyclops is shafted again: Man... I feel so fucking bad for that actor who plays Cyclops. It's a great character with so much potential, the actor plays him extremely well and he's written off like a chump. He got shafted in part 2 and now in part 3. I feel bad for him
-The ending was way too quick. I mean how do you get peace out of that small war? There was no conclusions really. I dont think the war would technically be over. There would still be prejudice, still be mutants out there using their powers for evil or misuse.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ok so now the juicey part. Just what the **** is Xavier? What IS he. Seriously that ending gives you only an inkling of how long he's might have lived. Has he been transfering his conscience from one mind to another to preserve himself? Was that bald headed host of a body really his original body? If his mind is ancient it would explain why he's so powerful.
I mean he brought up the subject... "Is it moral to transfer subconscience" or something like that. I wonder if Xavier was hinting that he himself has done so already... I mean... It's just a mind **** if you think about it for a while.
I loved the part when Magneto stood up for charles.
And holy mother, Mystique is HOT in human form. I felt so bad for her. She gave everything for Magneto and she got left in the cold.
Even though Magneto was given the cure, unsurprisingly it looks like he retained a bit of his power.
I think this ending was supposed to prove that there IS no real cure for Mutation. Only a supressant. That serum was able to supress his powers but they were supressed before... And he grew to use it as a master. I dont think there could ever be a cure and perhaps this ending proves so.
I'm very dissapointed that GAMBIT DIDNT SHOW UP AT ALL!! WHAT THE ****!! I thought people said Gambit was getting a small cameo?? But NOTHING. Nada. What the hell. Ugh... UGH... just... **** them.
I loved Spike... omfg I wish he had more lines and more of a role in the film. That actor was such a kick ass Spike. Asian suits the persona very well. Im sad Psyloke practically didnt get to do anything nor mentioned. She's just there.
=-=-=-=-=
I loved the movie. I hope there's a 4th one but I wouldnt mind if there wasnt.
Sage Shinigami
Member
Skyknight said:
Well, Stan Lee didn't really create much of anything, but this is besides the point. The X-Men are just as typical as any other superhero you care to name. If he wanted to show racism in comic books, he shouldn't have created a bunch of superheroes, which is all the X-Men are. All of them have some ability that can be used offensively or defensively. If these are really mutations, where are the freaks? Beast aside, they're all models with really cool superpowers that I'd kill to have. All of their powers can be used offensively or defensively, so essentially all Stan Lee did was make a bunch of Pokemon. ("Gambit! Use your Exploding Card Attack!!") The first mutants to really be perceived as the kind humans would reject are the Morlocks, and guess who created those?
So stop with this "the X-Men are supposed to be realistic" nonsense. Bottom line, if you're going to use the Phoenix Force, don't use it as an excuse for Jean to become a god just 'cause she magically got a power upgrade.
laudre said:
If you like good writers then why are you reading Bendis' stuff? :laugh:
More to the point, the old Silver and Golden Age comics were written differently. It was back when comics were just four-color kids books done on cheap stock paper and not "graphic novels". and the writers knew they were just writing kid's stories and not trying to impress their friends by fooling everyone in to thinking they're doing "high art". Make no mistake, I like all of the writers you mentioned (except Bendis), but I don't think one should down Silver and Golden Age work just 'cause its not like current stuff.
Millar's Ultimate X-Men was a bunch of crap. And it pales in comparison in Morrison's New X-Men, which had storylines that didn't suck and characters that I didn't wanna freaking strangle. And don't make Ultimate work sound like its vastly superior to 616 when they've got "Ultimate Longshot". Ultimate should've been them taking Marvel characters and doing something different with them, meaning different plotlines, new (after adding the classics) characters, not pissing on storylines that've already been and reaching into the bottom of the barrel to get Z-list superheroes and villains.
SaikoDragon
It's Judgement Time!
Skyknight said:
Is the game any good? That sucks he chose not to reprise the role. I mean come on, Mystique's been covered naked in the makeup for all three movies, I wish he would have gave it a go.
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