Top 7 Worst Comic Book Ressurections

[ryuuseipro]

More sitcom plots. Got it.

Nope, you don't got it. My point is simpler storytelling. One that doesn't involve chronic rocket science continuity and status quo changes disguised as stories. I could include Richie Rich and other Harvey comics as other examples, and my point would still stand. (Digests are as economical as TPBs, but that's another story.)

More to the point of this thread, you have the cynical gimmick of killing off a character and bringing it back in the most heavy-handed way possible. Even Annie's Daddy Warbucks, who was supposedly killed off in WWII, had a good "resurrection" some years later (he actually survived his ordeal), via creator Harold Gray. See? There's no need to make it so ugly.

If Bruce Wayne has to die, then he deserves something better than a cynical sales gimmick. DC and Marvel have to be more creative than this. Sorry.

 

[KouAidou]

I'm saying there's room for both. And that you'd see less of the continuity porn if there were more readers who clearly displayed no interest in it. I've enjoyed several good one issue stories, but I also enjoyed Blackest Night. Go figure.

Do you NEED that third arc? Hard question to tackle. Do you want the continuity porn for that arc? If so, then yes. If you don't, then skip it.

The problem is that even without all these events, if they'd *never* happened, comics would still have a few hundred issues of "standalone" stories to wade through.

I think you underestimate the degree to which that (hypothetical) third issue is actively alienating to the fringe audience, though. It's not a thing where you can just say "skip it and it's fine", because once you know that the wider continuity will be acknowledged in the book, you introduce that element of doubt: will this stuff ever be important again? There's nothing more frustrating than reading a story and picking up on cues that aren't actually there because they're actually referencing something that happened a year ago in a book you never read.

I do think there is room for ongoing stories. As you say, if there's no ongoing story then it's just piles of filler episodes, so to speak. I just want those ongoing stories to be good and to mean something, not just be endless strings of convoluted events that occur only to explain things no one really cares about and keep the money train running.

 

[Sage Shinigami]

Nope, you don't got it. My point is simpler storytelling. One that doesn't involve chronic rocket science continuity and status quo changes disguised as stories. I could include Richie Rich and other Harvey comics as other examples, and my point would still stand. (Digests are as economical as TPBs, but that's another story.)

More to the point of this thread, you have the cynical gimmick of killing off a character and bringing it back in the most heavy-handed way possible. Even Annie's Daddy Warbucks, who was supposedly killed off in WWII, had a good "resurrection" some years later (he actually survived his ordeal), via creator Harold Gray. See? There's no need to make it so ugly.

If Bruce Wayne has to die, then he deserves something better than a cynical sales gimmick. DC and Marvel have to be more creative than this. Sorry.

Dude, as much as I love the guy in your avatar, all stories can't be about "Hey, I know what we're going to do today!", or a weekly serial in which the entire world is reset every year.

Those are great and all, but sometimes doing something different is great too. I mean, "he actually survived"? Comics did that, decades ago. The fans aren't satisfied with that. (The fans aren't really satisfied with anything, though...)

Bruce Wayne dying was never a sales gimmick...mainly because HE WAS NEVER DEAD.

I think there's a disconnect between what's being hyped to readers and the actual stories.

The typical reaction by a person not actually reading comics, and instead just "hearing it from a friend" or "saw an article about it", tends to mark down every big mini-series story as a gimmick.

...Except, when you run upon something like Blackest Night, that's clearly a lie. Don't get me wrong, DC saw a potential cash cow and jumped on it, but the fact is that story was something Geoff was building to in his own book nearly from day one.

It doesn't suddenly go from "story" to "gimmick" when the main story stayed the same, even if they added some completely unnecessary side crap.

I think you underestimate the degree to which that (hypothetical) third issue is actively alienating to the fringe audience, though. It's not a thing where you can just say "skip it and it's fine", because once you know that the wider continuity will be acknowledged in the book, you introduce that element of doubt: will this stuff ever be important again? There's nothing more frustrating than reading a story and picking up on cues that aren't actually there because they're actually referencing something that happened a year ago in a book you never read.

I'm aware. It's a catch-22, though. That fringe audience has the potential to be much larger than the actual audience...but they aren't. And that main audience wants to know how Bruce Wayne became a Black Lantern when he wasn't supposed to be dead in the first place. And they SHOULD get an answer, as they're paying customers.

I do think there is room for ongoing stories. As you say, if there's no ongoing story then it's just piles of filler episodes, so to speak. I just want those ongoing stories to be good and to mean something, not just be endless strings of convoluted events that occur only to explain things no one really cares about and keep the money train running.

Setting aside the fact that I think there are plenty of good stories being told, I need to point out: You would seriously be surprised how many people DO care about all that crap. Check out a con report sometime.

 

[KouAidou]

I'm aware. It's a catch-22, though. That fringe audience has the potential to be much larger than the actual audience...but they aren't. And that main audience wants to know how Bruce Wayne became a Black Lantern when he wasn't supposed to be dead in the first place. And they SHOULD get an answer, as they're paying customers.



Setting aside the fact that I think there are plenty of good stories being told, I need to point out: You would seriously be surprised how many people DO care about all that crap. Check out a con report sometime.

Fair enough, dude. But you can't say all that and then say "how is it that anybody has trouble keeping up with what happens in comic books?" You know the reason, and you just don't care. You're happy to sacrifice the greater audience to appease the "paying customers" who grow thinner and thinner every year.

And that's your choice and all, but then don't act surprised when people outside the fandom find your media incomprehensible and want to stick with the simpler adaptations.

 

[Blue Saint]

Bruce Wayne dying was never a sales gimmick...mainly because HE WAS NEVER DEAD.

I think there's a disconnect between what's being hyped to readers and the actual stories.

You can't honestly believe that. While he may have never been "dead" the entirety of that particular story was pure gimmick. Batman R.I.P. was sold purely on the notion that Batman would "die", even though everyone knew it was temporary. Battle for the Cowl and Batman Reborn were pushed forward on the gimmick of Batman's death. The Return of Bruce Wayne and whatever DC is calling the new roll-out of Batman titles is still trading off the gimmick of Bruce Wayne's death. It is like saying that Death of Superman wasn't a gimmick because he was actually in suspended animation. It used the perceived death of Batman to sell books, even though no one bought it, and that is a sales gimmick.

I'm aware. It's a catch-22, though. That fringe audience has the potential to be much larger than the actual audience...but they aren't. And that main audience wants to know how Bruce Wayne became a Black Lantern when he wasn't supposed to be dead in the first place. And they SHOULD get an answer, as they're paying customers.

Honestly this shouldn't be a problem, it only is because editors suck at their jobs now. Every single editor, including the editors in chief, are so spineless now they just won't go up and say don't do this since it is going cause a mess. Another part of the editors job is to make titles as accessible as possible, which is why there were editor notes to begin with. This is the failure of modern comics, everyone focused on the writers and artists while they just let the editorial talent slide.

 

[Sage Shinigami]

Fair enough, dude. But you can't say all that and then say "how is it that anybody has trouble keeping up with what happens in comic books?" You know the reason, and you just don't care. You're happy to sacrifice the greater audience to appease the "paying customers" who grow thinner and thinner every year.

And that's your choice and all, but then don't act surprised when people outside the fandom find your media incomprehensible and want to stick with the simpler adaptations.

I said that's how it works and that I see the logic--I never said it's what I agree with, so much as you can't just ask them to run after a different audience at the expense of their current one. ...Mainly since:

That fringe audience has the potential to be much larger than the actual audience...but they aren't.

The Marvel Adventures line was very well-written and accessible. I hated post-CW Iron Man, so I got MA Iron Man instead. Great stuff. Nobody bought it. Even the main audience, which keeps crying about how hard comics are to keep up with? Never buy the well-written, done-in-one comics, or ones that eschew events.

I DON'T believe comics are anymore inaccessible than Naruto, or Bleach, and to some extent Super Sentai (which a lot of people get into and expect to start from Goranger and up even after discovering they "reset" every year), but what I believe doesn't have anything to do with what someone's perception is.

Personal opinion? Accessibility, while a problem, is so much less of a problem than distribution.

 

[Hidden Masta]

[/quote]ncluding the Clone Stuff, Spider-Man's tax audit, Gwen Stacy's lost virginity and the death of Aunt May.

....Someone explain....o.o

 

[Blue Saint]

Including the Clone Stuff, Spider-Man's tax audit, Gwen Stacy's lost virginity and the death of Aunt May.
....Someone explain....o.o

I think they are referring to Sins Past wherein it is revealed that before her death Gwen Stacy had sex with Norman Osborn. Which lead to her giving birth to twins that aged rapidly because of some Goblin gene bullshit and now the boy has been harassing Spider-Man and friends most recently as American Son. It is really stupid, up there with the totem stuff and OMD.

 

[Lynxara]

I DON'T believe comics are anymore inaccessible than Naruto, or Bleach, and to some extent Super Sentai (which a lot of people get into and expect to start from Goranger and up even after discovering they "reset" every year), but what I believe doesn't have anything to do with what someone's perception is.

Most of us spend absolutely nothing on our Super Sentai habit, unless we opt to purchase toys and DVDs. Naruto and Bleach retail for 200 pages for about $8 new, prices you can easily drive down by hitting second-hand stories or eBay. These forms of entertainment are accessible largely by virtue of being cheap.

Comics retail for about 20 pages of story for $2.99, at best. Yeah, most American comics are in color, but you can still read them in about five or ten minutes. You may need to read through a lot of Wikipedia articles or buy issues from unrelated titles to grasp what's going on in the comic you read. If you picked it based on a cool cover, chances are the interior art is by a totally different guy-- not a danger when buying manga volumes. Even if you buy American trades, they tend to run $15 - $20 apiece for fewer pages than a Bleach or Naruto volume.

American comics are less accessible than Bleach, Naruto, or Super Sentai largely by virtue of being a lot more expensive per page. This may not matter to comics pirates but it sure as heck matters to modern kids, who have limited disposable income and typically won't be pirating things until they hit their mid-teens.

Bleach and Naruto you just read numbered volumes until you've read it all or you're caught up. For American comics, some volumes are numbered, some are out of continuity, some are in-continuity but unnumbered, Spider-Man has like three sets of numbers, and good luck as a parent figuring out-- from covers alone-- what is age-appropriate for your child. Hell, good luck telling all the comics about Iron Man apart, in terms of content and age appropriateness, based on the covers.

How the hell is a parent, or a kid for that matter, going to know that Marvel Adventures Iron Man is better for them than that shrink-wrapped copy of Iron Man: Extremis? Or that Adam Warren Iron Man story that was like shooting LSD into your eyes? Demon in a Bottle may seem obviously too mature, but what about all those incomprehensibly dated Essential Iron Man stories where he's fighting ciphered Cold War Soviets?

 

[Sage Shinigami]

Most of us spend absolutely nothing on our Super Sentai habit, unless we opt to purchase toys and DVDs. Naruto and Bleach retail for 200 pages for about $8 new, prices you can easily drive down by hitting second-hand stories or eBay. These forms of entertainment are accessible largely by virtue of being cheap.

Comics retail for about 20 pages of story for $2.99, at best. Yeah, most American comics are in color, but you can still read them in about five or ten minutes. You may need to read through a lot of Wikipedia articles or buy issues from unrelated titles to grasp what's going on in the comic you read. If you picked it based on a cool cover, chances are the interior art is by a totally different guy-- not a danger when buying manga volumes. Even if you buy American trades, they tend to run $15 - $20 apiece for fewer pages than a Bleach or Naruto volume.

American comics are less accessible than Bleach, Naruto, or Super Sentai largely by virtue of being a lot more expensive per page. This may not matter to comics pirates but it sure as heck matters to modern kids, who have limited disposable income and typically won't be pirating things until they hit their mid-teens.

Bleach and Naruto you just read numbered volumes until you've read it all or you're caught up. For American comics, some volumes are numbered, some are out of continuity, some are in-continuity but unnumbered, Spider-Man has like three sets of numbers, and good luck as a parent figuring out-- from covers alone-- what is age-appropriate for your child. Hell, good luck telling all the comics about Iron Man apart, in terms of content and age appropriateness, based on the covers.

Hate to say it, but you got me there. It IS a crapload more expensive to get into comics--prohibitively so without a guide of some sort. I can tell a friend if he wants to read GL, start with Rebirth, but most people don't know that straight off.

I'll be honest: If someone wants to argue that comics are just impenetrable because of story? I get a headache. I'm sorry, but I do.

If that same person argues comics are impenetrable because of a lack of distribution, the idiocy in numbering, and the *ridiculously* high cost of comics? Well, they're right. And unfortunately, most comic book fans don't care to embrace any solutions to these problems.

How the hell is a parent, or a kid for that matter, going to know that Marvel Adventures Iron Man is better for them than that shrink-wrapped copy of Iron Man: Extremis? Or that Adam Warren Iron Man story that was like shooting LSD into your eyes? Demon in a Bottle may seem obviously too mature, but what about all those incomprehensibly dated Essential Iron Man stories where he's fighting ciphered Cold War Soviets?

*shrugs* I started reading comics when I was in third grade, and I never really thought about what was for me or what wasn't, so I never actually think about that. Three of the first ongoings I ever bought were Grant Morrison's JLA and Kurt Busiek's Avengers and Iron Man, the latter of which Tony sees himself brutally beaten and left for dead by...issue 6?

I may be the wrong person for this argument. :laugh: