Top 7 Worst Comic Book Ressurections

[Gryphman]

Sounds like a good contender for that list :laugh:

Na, not really. It's not like most of these, were they just pulled it out of their ass. Everything was set up before hand. Hell, most people figured out what they were doing almost immediately.

 

[ryuuseipro]

That wasn't Bruce's real body.

In Batman and Robin's third storyline, "Blackest Knight," it is revealed that the body left behind at the end of Final Crisis #6 was actually a clone created from a failed attempt by Darkseid to amass an army of "Batmen". Because of this, the skull that was used by the Black Lantern Corps and reanimated by Nekron was a fake. Dick Grayson, thinking it was Bruce Wayne's real body, attempted to resurrect it in a Lazarus Pit only to be met with a fierce, mindless combatant. He then realized the truth about the body.

And this is the kind of thing that causes reader confusion, and drive many readers away from comics. Why read about storylines with complex explainations, when they get simpler stories out of movies and TV show adaptations?

 

[Sage Shinigami]

And this is the kind of thing that causes reader confusion, and drive many readers away from comics. Why read about storylines with complex explainations, when they get simpler stories out of movies and TV show adaptations?

That's poor reasoning. Because what you actually said was, "Why read something complex when you can get something simple," and I'm fairly certain you didn't want to mean that.

Even if you did, I'm fairly certain there's some stuff in Smallville that would make people's heads hurt as well, if they weren't following along.

The fact that stories in comics can get complicated usually isn't the problem. It's the fact that people have to read three or four different comics to GET that story that fans complain about. Even in that explanation there are three *completely* different stories referenced.

That doesnt make it right for buisness or creativity in comics, in fact, it's what's killing the buisness because there's no honest progression as a result.

My response to that, is to point you to a Grant Morrison line. (Who's work I enjoy, even if it's the cool thing to hate on the guy.)

They’re designed to be told over and over again. If you were an Aboriginal kid or a tribal shaman, that’s what you’d do, you’d participate in the recycling of old stories, the ‘revamping’ of characters and scenarios, the explaining away of plot holes. Some to the job with more skill than others, but if you work with Marvel, DC or other companies’ pulp fiction characters, you’re basically repainting pictures of the ancestors on cave walls.

That doesn't mean you can't add or do new things to the mythology but it also means you WILL see old characters come back.

 

[KouAidou]

That's poor reasoning. Because what you actually said was, "Why read something complex when you can get something simple," and I'm fairly certain you didn't want to mean that.

Ehh. There are levels of need when it comes to complexity. Comic books are just reaching soap opera proportions of "It wasn't him! It was his evil twin!" And I doubt anyone is going to argue in favor of the "complexity" of soap opera plots.

The difference between comic books and oral traditions is that comic books are permanent artifacts (relatively speaking). The result is, you can't just change the status quo and have that new status quo to tell stories with. Because the old stories are still there when you tell new stories, people feel it necessary to ask the question, "but how did it get from A to B?"

So you have to tell these massive stories explaining away the change in status quo, and it takes so long and is usually so mind-numbingly stupid that by the time you're done setting up the new status quo, they've moved you on to another book before you can even tell any actual stories with it. So the only stories you get are stories about status quo changing, and while that's fun once in a while, it shouldn't make up the bulk of your storytelling.

If they want Bruce Wayne to be alive, they could just have Bruce Wane be alive and tell stories with a living Bruce Wayne. But no, in order to read that story you have to learn all about the Lazarus Pit and Nekron and the Black Lantern Corps and Omega Sanction and why do I want to wade through all this **** just to get a story about a dude in a cape fighting crime?

As for Smallville, here's the thing: no one new is actually coming into the show as of season 10. Because at this point it's just too inbred and complicated for anyone new to want to touch that. With TV, most of the time you have your audience set up by season 3 or so, and after that you're just doing anything you can to hold onto them until you either end the story or the show ceases to become profitable. Comics are the same way; they've just been in the "hold onto the established audience" mode for decades-- but since they'll never let the stories end, it's just going to be a slow, sad decline of quality-cutting and poorly planned "events" until that little profit line finally dips into the red.

 

[Blue Saint]

First there is a difference between complex and obtuse, and let's be honest Morrison's Batman output is clearly the latter. Honestly when your explanation to your own story involves an evil space god making clones, which never bodes well for superhero stories, the story has gotten away from you. The issue here is that DC hired the wrong guy to helm arguably the central character of their line-up for the simple fact Morrison doesn't do well with continuity. He just doesn't, that just isn't one of his strengths. While that lack is acceptable on lesser properties on something such Batman you need it, or run the risk causing serious problems later on. One just needs to look at New X-men for that.

Honestly I think that superheroes should come with expiration dates, about every few decades or so the old characters should be retired or moved to supporting roles while new characters take their place. Let's look at the most successful franchise in comics the X-Men. Part of their success was that the team constantly gained and lost members, keeping things fresh and allowing new readers to feel that these character were for them not just some holdovers. One just has to look at the make-up of the team from All New, All Different era to that of the post X-Tinction Agenda era.

 

[Sage Shinigami]

Ehh. There are levels of need when it comes to complexity. Comic books are just reaching soap opera proportions of "It wasn't him! It was his evil twin!" And I doubt anyone is going to argue in favor of the "complexity" of soap opera plots.

The difference between comic books and oral traditions is that comic books are permanent artifacts (relatively speaking). The result is, you can't just change the status quo and have that new status quo to tell stories with. Because the old stories are still there when you tell new stories, people feel it necessary to ask the question, "but how did it get from A to B?"

So you have to tell these massive stories explaining away the change in status quo, and it takes so long and is usually so mind-numbingly stupid that by the time you're done setting up the new status quo, they've moved you on to another book before you can even tell any actual stories with it. So the only stories you get are stories about status quo changing, and while that's fun once in a while, it shouldn't make up the bulk of your storytelling.

If they want Bruce Wayne to be alive, they could just have Bruce Wane be alive and tell stories with a living Bruce Wayne. But no, in order to read that story you have to learn all about the Lazarus Pit and Nekron and the Black Lantern Corps and Omega Sanction and why do I want to wade through all this **** just to get a story about a dude in a cape fighting crime?

But, you don't have to. It's been a while since I read Batman and Robin. Still, last I checked, the first story...was just a story. The new Batman and Robin, doing cool crap.

The second story? Again, just a story. More Batman and Robin doing cool crap.

The third is that continuity porn you're talking about, but that's three issues and then we're right back to another story that's just about Batman and Robin.

The bulk of the story ISN'T about new status quo--that's just where the sales go.

 

[ryuuseipro]

Ehh. There are levels of need when it comes to complexity. Comic books are just reaching soap opera proportions of "It wasn't him! It was his evil twin!" And I doubt anyone is going to argue in favor of the "complexity" of soap opera plots.

The difference between comic books and oral traditions is that comic books are permanent artifacts (relatively speaking). The result is, you can't just change the status quo and have that new status quo to tell stories with. Because the old stories are still there when you tell new stories, people feel it necessary to ask the question, "but how did it get from A to B?"

So you have to tell these massive stories explaining away the change in status quo, and it takes so long and is usually so mind-numbingly stupid that by the time you're done setting up the new status quo, they've moved you on to another book before you can even tell any actual stories with it. So the only stories you get are stories about status quo changing, and while that's fun once in a while, it shouldn't make up the bulk of your storytelling.

If they want Bruce Wayne to be alive, they could just have Bruce Wane be alive and tell stories with a living Bruce Wayne. But no, in order to read that story you have to learn all about the Lazarus Pit and Nekron and the Black Lantern Corps and Omega Sanction and why do I want to wade through all this **** just to get a story about a dude in a cape fighting crime?

As for Smallville, here's the thing: no one new is actually coming into the show as of season 10. Because at this point it's just too inbred and complicated for anyone new to want to touch that. With TV, most of the time you have your audience set up by season 3 or so, and after that you're just doing anything you can to hold onto them until you either end the story or the show ceases to become profitable. Comics are the same way; they've just been in the "hold onto the established audience" mode for decades-- but since they'll never let the stories end, it's just going to be a slow, sad decline of quality-cutting and poorly planned "events" until that little profit line finally dips into the red.

My point exactly!

Smallville, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, eventually wound up with the fanboy crowd being its strongest audience. No different from the Star Trek shows and their ilk.

With comics, it's even worse! Indeed, comics are more about changing a status quo than telling a story. And Byzantine continuity has to be involved, so it's become like freaking rocket science! Average readers don't like being lectured at, they just want a quick and entertaining read. At this point, even an Archie Digest Comic is more entertaining than some comic explaining how Bruce Wayne came back from some alternate dimension or something like that (only to come up with something worse later on).

 

[Sage Shinigami]

My point exactly!

Smallville, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, eventually wound up with the fanboy crowd being its strongest audience. No different from the Star Trek shows and their ilk.

With comics, it's even worse! Indeed, comics are more about changing a status quo than telling a story. And Byzantine continuity has to be involved, so it's become like freaking rocket science! Average readers don't like being lectured at, they just want a quick and entertaining read. At this point, even an Archie Digest Comic is more entertaining than some comic explaining how Bruce Wayne came back from some alternate dimension or something like that (only to come up with something worse later on).

More sitcom plots. Got it.

 

[KouAidou]

But, you don't have to. It's been a while since I read Batman and Robin. Still, last I checked, the first story...was just a story. The new Batman and Robin, doing cool crap.

The second story? Again, just a story. More Batman and Robin doing cool crap.

The third is that continuity porn you're talking about, but that's three issues and then we're right back to another story that's just about Batman and Robin.

The bulk of the story ISN'T about new status quo--that's just where the sales go.

You're mixing your messages, though. You're arguing that the complexity is important to give the story "depth", but then you're also saying that the comics are capable of telling perfectly fine stand-alones.

Here's the question: Do we really need that continuity porn third issue? If so, then are the issues before and after really stand-alone? If not, then why bother with it?

 

[Sage Shinigami]

You're mixing your messages, though. You're arguing that the complexity is important to give the story "depth", but then you're also saying that the comics are capable of telling perfectly fine stand-alones.

Here's the question: Do we really need that continuity porn third issue? If so, then are the issues before and after really stand-alone? If not, then why bother with it?

I'm saying there's room for both. And that you'd see less of the continuity porn if there were more readers who clearly displayed no interest in it. I've enjoyed several good one issue stories, but I also enjoyed Blackest Night. Go figure.

Do you NEED that third arc? Hard question to tackle. Do you want the continuity porn for that arc? If so, then yes. If you don't, then skip it.

The problem is that even without all these events, if they'd *never* happened, comics would still have a few hundred issues of "standalone" stories to wade through.