Super sentai and storytelling

[Araki]

i found Ultraman Mebius a pretty shitty and boring series myself, i couldnt force myself finish it.
however Ultra fans think they are better than everyone else and Ultra is a superior franchise.
hint: it is not and it is no wonder it is in a slump.

 

[Burkion]

i found Ultraman Mebius a pretty shitty and boring series myself, i couldnt force myself finish it.
however Ultra fans think they are better than everyone else and Ultra is a superior franchise.
hint: it is not and it is no wonder it is in a slump.

Care to give some reasons why?

Now I'll admit, it has a more episodic nature to it than Gokaiger, as Gokaiger did have a central storyline to drive a plot along, though that was wasted at best in my opinion.

 

[lazycoconut]

Well, too bad for you. Gokaiger wasn't what you wanted to see, but there's no objective measure of "better" or "worse." I liked Gokaiger for its fanservice and I value it much more for being enjoyable to me than I value some series that are supposedly better written. It's like people go "but Boukenger was so much better, it had its own story" And? For me, the characters were awful, the story was dull, I could've done without it. Not so for others.

Even if you take into account established "rules" of writing such as the Chekhov's Gun or "show, don't tell", people won't agree as to when and how they apply. There is no unbiased measure of what makes a good story, and that's why discussions like this one can be difficult.

Your complaints about "stereotypes" and goty's point that pretty much all Sentai up to a point feature flat/stereotypical characters brings me to something else I wanted to address: I get really annoyed at the assertion of some fans (I am not aiming this at anyone here - I've seen it many many times) that modern audiences are somehow vastly superior to 70s/80s/90s audiences and just won't tolerate stock plots or generic characters any more - then they get upset when Sentai continues to do pretty much as it's always done. If you really are hung up on wanting to see thoughtful writing or production, only a very few shows will appeal to you.

 

[Burkion]

Well, too bad for you. Gokaiger wasn't what you wanted to see, but there's no objective measure of "better" or "worse." I liked Gokaiger for its fanservice and I value it much more for being enjoyable to me than I value some series that are supposedly better written. It's like people go "but Boukenger was so much better, it had its own story" And? For me, the characters were awful, the story was dull, I could've done without it. Not so for others.

Lazy, let's get one thing straight here. We'll be getting another when I get to your second point.

I am a writer. I care about good, consistent characters, fun engaging plots, and productions that can pull off entertainment to a degree that I enjoy. This is a subjective thing, of course, but there are some things that are not as subjective.

I've never seen Boukenger, so I cannot comment. But Gokaiger had a story, and it had some interesting villains-it just did nothing with them. Blue's mentor/friend being a cyborg used against him could have been great, dramatic, whatever. It was underwhelming and felt like they pulled a lot of their punches.

The leader up to the turning point of the series secretly wanting to be respected when he had appeared a fop could have been interesting if they explored it before he died.

The big bad was the guy's father but that barely mattered beyond giving him a reason to come to Earth, and the way he was defeated, and his Empire for that matter, was lackluster considering how much they were hyped at the start of the series.

But the show isn't just about the villains, and I know you have this weird thing about not wanting villains to be all that important.

It's about the heroes.

Which brings us to the aloof possibly amoral Red, the stoic Blue, the wacky silly Green, the Girly Princess Pink, and the hot headed tomboyish fanservicey Yellow. Who is also greedy.

And ultimately the even sillier fanboy Silver. That's all we have to work with beyond the fanservice.

The fanservice makes up the grand total of the series, but it is subpar fanservice.

The past heroes are little more than macguffins at best, there are little to no homages to past series, either in what the Gokaiger bring to the table beyond the obvious or in what the villains bring to the table, there are no returning villains, there is really nothing beyond returning heroes and the Gokai Change.

Compare this to the show Mebius, which like its story or not, it did the whole anniversary series thing better by definition.

Purely because it went the extra step over Gokaiger, in the same way that Gokaiger went over Decade.

Mebius was filled with homages to the past. Old villains returning, old heroes appearing and mattering, old technology being reused, hell even just ideas or scenes was brought back gloriously. Capsule Monsters, Mirai doing the transformation call of one of the past Ultras randomly, the files of the past monster fighting groups...

That's something I would have liked from Gokaiger. If it's going to celebrate, why not go all out?

Your complaints about "stereotypes" and goty's point that pretty much all Sentai up to a point feature flat/stereotypical characters brings me to something else I wanted to address: I get really annoyed at the assertion of some fans (I am not aiming this at anyone here - I've seen it many many times) that modern audiences are somehow vastly superior to 70s/80s/90s audiences and just won't tolerate stock plots or generic characters any more - then they get upset when Sentai continues to do pretty much as it's always done. If you really are hung up on wanting to see thoughtful writing or production, only a very few shows will appeal to you.

I'm glad you brought up that you're not aiming this at me, because I vastly prefer the 80s Sentai to the Modern Sentai.

It had a lot more of an edge back then, tempered perhaps with the way the effects worked, and they didn't try to do the silly characters as much. They just told an enjoyable plot for a kids show and had some great action, which is all I really want.

If you make your characters a big focus of the show, which a lot of older Sentai did not, then I had better be able to enjoy them or your action better be able to surpass them.

Modern Sentai, more than not, fails at this for me. Something about it feels off to me.

This isn't to say that I like all old school Sentai without question. Far from it.

It took a while for me to get into Maskman, and that was after trying to watch it a few times over the course of months. But once I got a few episodes in and realized what the show was going for, specifically the God Hand episode, it started working with me and made a lot more sense.

Bioman I am a fan of because it's just a good adventure from the start with a convincing villain and pretty nice powers and a reason for them to be heroes.

Liveman won me over with its story and characters and keeps me interested with them, and the more random adventures they have, despite other grievances I have with the show.

...and that's really it for the Sentai I love. ZyuRanger may join the list just out of me loving the Mecha so much, but I haven't seen enough to comment. Changeman may also join that list, I haven't gotten to see it yet.

Jetman? I hate Jetman. I hate Jetman so much.

Which is weird, because I'll flat out tell you-the Gokaiger Jetman episode was the best episode of Gokaiger to me.

Sadly that Gai is not the Gai I have to sit through in Jetman.

 

[lazycoconut]

I won't argue with you over what or what doesn't make for good storytelling. As a writer, you surely have a bigger reference pool and knowledge of stuff I don't; and the Gokaiger vs Decade vs Ultraman debate will probably still be going on in twenty years' time. But I can at least respect that you care about wanting quality and passion in a show.

I will say that the stereotypes used for the Gokaigers have been on repeat since the beginning of Sentai (it doesn't help that Gokaiger used a lot of elements of One Piece, though.) Cliches become cliche through repetition. Certain Sentai types change over time though, like in the 70s or early 80s your stock Yellow Ranger would be a physically tough guy and now it's a cutesy young girl. Or like we now associate Blues with an intelligent, serious personality but at one time they tended to be the young or naive guy on the team

My second point was more in reference to an acquaintance of mine who will only watch a very small subset of Sentai between Hurricaneger and Shinkenger - he insists anything before or after this has flat/dull/stereotypical characters and isn't worth his time. I've seen similar arguments from a lot of people in a lot of places but I think, if there are only a very few shows whose characters, plots, writing etc. you enjoy, doesn't that suggest that everything else is closer to the norm?

 

[Aoi Kurenai]

i found Ultraman Mebius a pretty shitty and boring series myself, i couldnt force myself finish it.
however Ultra fans think they are better than everyone else and Ultra is a superior franchise.
hint: it is not and it is no wonder it is in a slump.

I think there are only maybe a couple of very vocal and annoying Ultra fans who are like that, you shouldn't write everyone who likes Ultraman off.

And, I dunno, that entire comment seems oddly defensive. What was it about Mebius that you didn't like?

 

[Lynxara]

There is no unbiased measure of what makes a good story, and that's why discussions like this one can be difficult.

I don't entirely agree with this. I think you have half a point, in that it's very hard to diagnose what is good writing in an unbiased, objective way. A lot of times, it's just a matter of a great number of subjective factors coming together in a pleasing or meaningful way.

Now, I think you can objectively diagnose when a story is bad on a technical level (as opposed to being dislikable, which is a totally separate issue). There is no story that is improved by the presence of plot holes, inconsistent characterizations, or blatant deus ex machina contrivances.

At best, other parts of the story will be good enough that the audience will be inclined to tolerate the bad parts. Even at that, most people would probably be happier with the story if the technically flawed parts were removed or improved.

In short, I think stories tend to be good in individualistic, idiosyncratic ways, which is why it's hard to duplicate success in entertainment without diminishing returns setting in. Bad stories, though, tend to be bad in very predictable, well-worn ways.

If you really are hung up on wanting to see thoughtful writing or production, only a very few shows will appeal to you.

Well, Sturgeon's Law, 90% of everything is crap. But some people would be far happier paying attention to the 10% of things that aren't crap, then they would lowering their standards so they can pretend to enjoy each passing fad.

Something to remember about Sentai is that a lot of it is produced to be ephemera, and so simply isn't meant to stand up to any serious scrutiny. On a basic level, these shows are designed to be watched and then forgotten when next year's new-and-improved model comes along.

Any series that picks up any sort of real fan following has gone above and beyond the call of duty for Sentai, by definition. That so many older Sentai seasons that command respect and affection one year, five year, even ten or twenty years after their initial airing speaks volumes about just how good this franchise can be.

I don't believe there's anything about Sentai that says it has to be bad, or shoddy, or stupid. It's just a matter of when Toei decides it wants to let strong creators use the shows to say things, and when Toei decides that the creators must make a joyless desultory toy ad.

 

[lazycoconut]

Well, Sturgeon's Law, 90% of everything is crap. But some people would be far happier paying attention to the 10% of things that aren't crap, then they would lowering their standards so they can pretend to enjoy each passing fad.

Something to remember about Sentai is that a lot of it is produced to be ephemera, and so simply isn't meant to stand up to any serious scrutiny. On a basic level, these shows are designed to be watched and then forgotten when next year's new-and-improved model comes along.

Any series that picks up any sort of real fan following has gone above and beyond the call of duty for Sentai, by definition. That so many older Sentai seasons that command respect and affection one year, five year, even ten or twenty years after their initial airing speaks volumes about just how good this franchise can be.

I don't believe there's anything about Sentai that says it has to be bad, or shoddy, or stupid. It's just a matter of when Toei decides it wants to let strong creators use the shows to say things, and when Toei decides that the creators must make a joyless desultory toy ad.

I agree with your first point. But if you are very passionate about wanting quality in what you watch, you'll have a rougher ride than someone who's a bit more easygoing and can pick out a couple of things you enjoyed in each series and be happy with that. We all like to have a good old moan (none more so than me) but sometimes I think that some of the bitterest fans are that way because they think the franchise could do so much better

On a personal level, I think I'm a pretty poor judge of writing mostly because I don't have a background in writing or a wide knowledge of pop culture from which to judge

I also agree that Sentai doesn't need to be poor. I do think an argument can be made that stock plots, concepts, characters are (give and take a few stand-outs) common to the whole franchise, but a good creative team can turn them into something memorable

 

[Lynxara]

But if you are very passionate about wanting quality in what you watch, you'll have a rougher ride than someone who's a bit more easygoing and can pick out a couple of things you enjoyed in each series and be happy with that.

How? Western civilization by itself has already produced more entertainment than any human being could possibly digest in an entire lifetime. If you focus on finding the 10% of things that aren't crap, then you'll never lack for interesting things to watch or read, and may find yourself trying out more different kinds of mediums. If you only watch the best 10% of Sentai, that's still going to be 4 really good shows.

I do think an argument can be made that stock plots, concepts, characters are (give and take a few stand-outs) common to the whole franchise, but a good creative team can turn them into something memorable

This is what I mean about shows being good in individualistic way. A lot of good iterations of stock plots end up adding something to the stock formula that makes it feel unique to that show. Likewise, a lot of the broadly cliche concepts that work their way into Sentai often have things added to them that make them feel distinct to that particular series.

It is not inherently bad for something to emerge from a type, unless there's literally nothing about the idea that's specific rather than generic. This is actually quite rare in Sentai, since even mediocre seasons tend to diligently incorporate their core themes into as many different aspects of the show as possible.

tl;dr: Put together enough generic things and chances are the end product won't be generic at all, if you put any thought whatsoever into what you're doing.

 

[lazycoconut]

How? Western civilization by itself has already produced more entertainment than any human being could possibly digest in an entire lifetime. If you focus on finding the 10% of things that aren't crap, then you'll never lack for interesting things to watch or read, and may find yourself trying out more different kinds of mediums. If you only watch the best 10% of Sentai, that's still going to be 4 really good shows.

I meant in terms of enjoyment of Sentai alone, you will be waiting longer for a good show to come along (and I think this is why so many people are angry with the direction of Sentai post-Geki-ish or even post-2000 in general.) But that's a damn good point