Ryuki fans step up!

[musashi03]

Which showed how desperate Shiro was when it came saving Yui. To the point where he didn't care if he sacrificed the Riders & innocent people. But that never said he was evil, just misguided in his attempts.

Even if Eri was saved, it wouldn't mattered since Shiro had his finger on the reset button. In fact Shinji, Ren, & the Riders were nothing but playing pieces for his game. Which is the reason why nothing good came out of it.

I agree, I think another mistake of those "reset-haters" is that they fail to realize that Shiro isn't as normal as everybody since they keep on complaining that he shouldn't be able to control people's fates... Too bad, because he apparently can in the world of Ryuki.

Right. But there is NO other reason for the reset except that. It just makes sense. I have a sibling and it's something I would have done if I was Shiro.

Same here, if I had the power like Shiro had (since he wasn't your typical human being), I would have done the same since I can. Just look at the Overlord of Darkness, heck, he murdered a lot of people with the Agito seed, and I don't see people complaining why all he got was a shower from his dead El of Water and a Rider Kick which he still managed to survive from. Hell, I love Agito, so I can see the mythology pretty much backs it up, which goes the same with Ryuki since it has its own version of the "Overlord of Darkness" in the form of Shiro and Yui, not necessarily the same, but definitely something that's probably above the human race.

 

[Black Fang]

You didn't demonstrate anything. :laugh: You're just jumping to your own conclusions now.

It's not a sacrifice if the person doing it isn't sacrificing anything.

He did realize that Kagawa was a hypocrite. He combined that with his idea of "sacrificing" and he killed him for it. He just continued trying to be a hero without what held back Kagawa. He continued without something he loved.

But he didn't kill him for a reason that made sense (weakness). He didn't continue with the original mission. He killed him because he suddenly decided saving Yui was how to be a hero. There was nothing to lead him to that conversion. It just happened.

Shinji wouldn't have wanted to be the last Rider when the time came. Shinji fought for the people in the War and the people outside it as well. Yui shows Kanzaki that he should stop because of what has happened. Shinji dies trying to save people, and Ren becomes a killer to save the one he loves. Yui shows Shiro that there's no point to the War because she will not accept it and he sets back the lives of the Riders. Shiro knows what he has done, but he does change for Yui. Whether good or bad, the change is for Yui. The wishes and the strong desires are returned to the way they were. Kanzaki realizes his war is senseless in the eyes of Yui and he returns the lives the way they used to be. His power to win the war is used to end it.

We all understand the reason behind the reset. But that's just not a great excuse to do it. You're essentially pretending it never happened. No consequences at all.

Shinji's actions and Yui's actions led him to the conclusion. He would have learned nothing from it if he continued.

But he wouldn't have continued. He would have just lost and probably vaporized like in Episode Final.

This has nothing to do with Lincoln.

I was making a comparison.

And you seem to also forget that both Yui and Shiro were not ordinary human beings, for all we know they're as powerful as the Overlord in Agito, hence being able to control people's fates and time itself, since I get the impression that you guys can't accept that fact that an ordinary human being was able to decide whether to severe their experiences and bonded friendships.

Here we go again. We somehow "can't understand/accept". Why is it us with the problem?

And there was never any indication that the Kanzakis had any supernatural abilities beyond what was related to the Mirror World. That's a far cry from the Overlord, who isn't even human.

Which showed how desperate Shiro was when it came saving Yui. To the point where he didn't care if he sacrificed the Riders & innocent people. But that never said he was evil, just misguided in his attempts.

You have a really twisted view of what is evil and what isn't. So it's ok to go out and have people killed, and not give a damn, as long as it's to save someone? That's not villainous to you? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. all had the best interests for their people (at least in their own minds), but does that make them any less evil? Because they had "good" intentions?

Even if Eri was saved, it wouldn't mattered since Shiro had his finger on the reset button. In fact Shinji, Ren, & the Riders were nothing but playing pieces for his game. Which is the reason why nothing good came out of it.

That's the point we're arguing. There shouldn't be a reset button. Shiro should have just lost, Yui could be at peace, and Ren can save Eri at last.

 

[musashi03]

Here we go again. We somehow "can't understand/accept". Why is it us with the problem?

You know that we're almost always on the same side with most issues in recent Toku right? But I'll get to this quote in a second...

And there was never any indication that the Kanzakis had any supernatural abilities beyond what was related to the Mirror World. That's a far cry from the Overlord, who isn't even human.

That's when vent cards come in. Heck, for somebody without any indication of having "supernatural" abilities, he sure can make powerful cards... Like say... Time Vent card anyone?

Seriously, that's how the world of Ryuki revolves, it just so happens that somebody (or something) in the form of Shiro Kanzaki has the ability to create something out of nothing, alter the physics of the world, and control time itself. Call it silly, but that's just how it is in the Ryuki mythology, and failing to accept that simple fact and trying to argue that Shiro shouldn't have had that kind of powers is really pointless, because he has them, whether you like it or not.

You might argue that his powers are only in the Mirror World, but as you can see, anything in the Mirror World can cross into the real world, so it covers both at some extent, even the Time Vent card covered a time when Shinji and company were in the real world.

If you're wondering why he didn't just create some sort of direct solution to Yui's problem, then consider the saying "God works in mysterious ways", I'm not saying that Shiro is a God/god, but he might be some sort of a "higher being", which is hard to comprehend since we're only human, if you get what I mean. Just like in Fringe, when that IQ guy's intelligence exponentially grew to a level so high that nobody can understand him at all.

That's the point we're arguing. There shouldn't be a reset button. Shiro should have just lost, Yui could be at peace, and Ren can save Eri at last.

Which brings me back to the whole point of the show... The title is KAMEN RIDER RYUKI, it's about Shinji's value, which is masked by Ren's role which I think was intended. It's a story about Ren's journey but ultimately about Shinji's worth. The first Time Vent showed what Shinji can do that nobody else can (freaking remember what really happened while everybody was "WTF are you talking about?!), and it is safe to assume that he can do so again, because this show IS ABOUT HIM, and persisting that it was about Ren just shows you really didn't get what the writers intended, why they named the show after Shinji.

Sorry, I'm too sleepy to talk nicely, I mean no offense to anyone.

 

[netro32]

And there was never any indication that the Kanzakis had any supernatural abilities beyond what was related to the Mirror World. That's a far cry from the Overlord, who isn't even human.

Actually there is a claim in one of the official guides to ryuki that they both had powers. The only reason why shiro has it was because of his interaction with mirror yui. Anyways, their power to control or interact with the mirror in essence could change anything of the real world.

You have a really twisted view of what is evil and what isn't. So it's ok to go out and have people killed, and not give a damn, as long as it's to save someone? That's not villainous to you? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. all had the best interests for their people (at least in their own minds), but does that make them any less evil? Because they had "good" intentions?

Seriously, you had to use the evil dictator for your point, that doesn't remotely even justify your claim just because its really simple to use such a notion. But I do agree with you, Kanzaki was not misguided, by no means. the riders may have been misguided, by the lies of winning, but Kanzaki was insane. And I do have sibilings, and I would never harm others that have no part of it.

That's the point we're arguing. There shouldn't be a reset button. Shiro should have just lost, Yui could be at peace, and Ren can save Eri at last.

The problem is we really dont know what would have happened at the end with out the reset. One we dont know what caused the mirror world to exist other than one of the alternate endings and even then we dont know if that plays a part in the main series. Second, lets assume it did (the whole main mirror controlling the mirror world), we dont know how Shiro was really tied in. When the mirror broke time just restarted and the war continued. Whose not say if Ren won without the help of Yui's intervention, would things have just restarted and the battle just continued.

Look the only real reset that sucked was DECADE! Reseting EVERYTHING!

 

[musashi03]

Look the only real reset that sucked was DECADE! Reseting EVERYTHING!

QFT

 

[netro32]

Which brings me back to the whole point of the show... The title is KAMEN RIDER RYUKI, it's about Shinji's value, which is masked by Ren's role which I think was intended. It's a story about Ren's journey but ultimately about Shinji's worth. The first Time Vent showed what Shinji can do that nobody else can (freaking remember what really happened while everybody was "WTF are you talking about?!), and it is safe to assume that he can do so again, because this show IS ABOUT HIM, and persisting that it was about Ren just shows you really didn't get what the writers intended, why they named the show after Shinji.

Sorry, I'm too sleepy to talk nicely, I mean no offense to anyone.

You're right. The story was about the other Riders fighting for their claim to the prize, but the reason why Ryuki is the main character is because in the end he displayed what it meant to be a hero. Even though he was indecisive throughout the entire series, but who wouldnt? Who knows what the right answers are in life.

 

[netro32]

QFT

I mean seriously, Decade's reset has forever screwed with the past riders. I mean jeez, we talk about other series in the terms of "worlds". When there are series take place in the same world, Kuuga/Agito, W/OOO, maybe DenO/Kiva (havent found a guide to Climax Deka to prove other wise).

 

[musashi03]

I'm not a hundered percent sure about Kuuga and Agito though, since I remember that it was intended in the early episodes to connect both series, but was later on dropped by the writers. Well, at least that's what everybody says.

 

[netro32]

I'm not a hundered percent sure about Kuuga and Agito though, since I remember that it was intended in the early episodes to connect both series, but was later on dropped by the writers. Well, at least that's what everybody says.

Yeah, they both exist in the same world. It just never went anywhere. At the time Toei still thought that the Kamen Rider franchise was still going to tank. Hence why there was no team up.

 

[Black Fang]

You know that we're almost always on the same side with most issues in recent Toku right?

I'm aware of that. But in this instance you're labeling the "haters" (and I don't really hate the finale so much as think it could or should have been done differently) as people who can't understand Kobayashi's "genius".

That's when vent cards come in. Heck, for somebody without any indication of having "supernatural" abilities, he sure can make powerful cards... Like say... Time Vent card anyone?

The Mirror World and origins of the Advent Cards aren't really "supernatural" though. There was a lot of real inter-dimensional science involved, as we saw with Lab 401 and Kanzaki's old classmates. The Overlord is downright supernatural. Kanzaki isn't.

Which brings me back to the whole point of the show... The title is KAMEN RIDER RYUKI, it's about Shinji's value, which is masked by Ren's role which I think was intended. It's a story about Ren's journey but ultimately about Shinji's worth. The first Time Vent showed what Shinji can do that nobody else can (freaking remember what really happened while everybody was "WTF are you talking about?!), and it is safe to assume that he can do so again, because this show IS ABOUT HIM, and persisting that it was about Ren just shows you really didn't get what the writers intended, why they named the show after Shinji.

But... I'm not advocating that the show should have been about Ren. If Shinji had not been the titular character the point of the show (and unique take on the classic Rider premise) would have been lost. So I don't know where you're coming from here.

Seriously, you had to use the evil dictator for your point, that doesn't remotely even justify your claim just because its really simple to use such a notion.

I don't see how it doesn't.

But I do agree with you, Kanzaki was not misguided, by no means. the riders may have been misguided, by the lies of winning, but Kanzaki was insane. And I do have sibilings, and I would never harm others that have no part of it.

So we're basically in agreement on Kanzaki's nature, what is the problem?

The problem is we really dont know what would have happened at the end with out the reset. One we dont know what caused the mirror world to exist other than one of the alternate endings and even then we dont know if that plays a part in the main series. Second, lets assume it did (the whole main mirror controlling the mirror world), we dont know how Shiro was really tied in. When the mirror broke time just restarted and the war continued. Whose not say if Ren won without the help of Yui's intervention, would things have just restarted and the battle just continued.

I would still say that without the reset Ren would have just continued to live and things eventually would return to normal. Only Ren and ORE Journal would bear the burden of what they experienced.

As for the events of 13 Riders, Shinji did "prematurely" destroy the main mirror and end the Game (before it could play out fully). In essence he "cheated", allowing Kanzaki to start the Game over again so it could play out properly.