Kamen Rider Kuuga Fansub Project

When it comes to honorifics like "san", "sama", "kun", "oni-san", etc. I prefer those to be left untranslated, or at least to have a translator's note out at the top of the screen explaining the meaning. There are some terms in languages that just don't translate well into other languages. Take Flashman ep. 22. Translating "Phoenix-san" as "Mr. Phoenix" would look silly. The same with "Mr. Customer" or "Big Brother/Sister". No one refers to their siblings as "Big brother/sister" in Western societies, at least not in those words. Now when it comes to stuff like "Kameo" or "Kuma" in Den-O, for example, that I agree is inappropriate.

I'd love to see a Sinhalese-subbed version of a toku though. That language I find has more equivalents to the Japanese than English. (At least I believe so with my limited knowledge.)

Oni-san isn't an honorific. San is an honorific. Sama can be translated in LOTS of ways. Translators notes should not be seen during an episode. IMO, if there is a seen Translators note, the translate did not do a very good job. Now before anyone jumps my ass for that comment, I stated IMO. Moving on. As others have said, you can drop the honorifics. They are not used in in the American language, and if they are not able to be translated in context of what is going on, drop them. If they don't refer to them in English in one way, find a way to refer to them. But they CAN and SHOULD be translated.
 
That's why it's not always appropriate to translate -san directly as Mister, Miss, Ms, etc. Sometimes honorifics should simply be dropped to preserve the natural flow of spoken English, sometimes you should use a non-standard translation that fits the context. Making decisions like this on a case-by-case basis is what makes translation an art instead of a science.

That's another thing. Translations don't have to be 1:1. Sometimes what is said in Japanese needs to be re-worked for a translation.
 
If you drop the honorifics all together, then you'll have the audience wondering what the people are saying at the end of each name.

With that said, how would you translate "san" or "sama" in a way that would make sense in English, then?
 
If you drop the honorifics all together, then you'll have the audience wondering what the people are saying at the end of each name.

Translations routinely dropped honorifics when I first got into watching anime. For awhile I didn't notice this because I couldn't pick out the honorific as something attached to names as opposed to just a common word, like the Japanese "is" or "the."

Once I did realize the honorifics had something to do with the names, I quickly worked out that some of them had English counterparts and some of them were expressing things English had no words for. So when the honorific was dropped, I just assumed that's because it was unnecessary for the translation.

Granted, these were official translations that shipped with printed inserts that had pages and pages of translator's notes, so I felt no need to mistrust the translation. I figured that when the honorific was dropped, once I knew what an honorific was, that it really just didn't mean anything.

And, in fact, most of the time? -chan and -kun don't mean anything really important in most manga, anime, and other media. You really can just drop them most of the time.

Sometimes they are significant, but the easiest way to figure out when is by context. Ideally you watch the whole series before you TL and figure out if there's some plot point related to a changing honorific. Then you work out how you'll handle that.

With that said, how would you translate "san" or "sama" in a way that would make sense in English, then?

Well, this is my basic method.

1. Analyze the situation.
2. Figure out how an American writer likely would've treated that situation. Figure out if there are any American genre writing conceits that might apply.
3. Drop the honorific if it's expressing something typically expressed only by tone of voice in American English. (Expressing formality or other social constructs through word choice is simply not a very big part of English.)
4. If the honorific is expressing something that can be translated in some way, then figure out how to translate it.

If the series in question is using a fantasy or otherwise not-real-world setting, -sama can be turned into a fancy title (like Viscount or His Excellency) or simply Lord/Lady. In a real world setting, you may be able to turn-sama into a title appropriate to that particular character, like Chairman or President

If you can't, -sama is usually best dropped from subtitles and handled through pure acting in a dub track, since usually in anime and tokusatsu writing-- which use very unrealistic speech patterns-- it's just an exaggerated way of indicating how much a given character respects someone.

You can treat -san the same way in most contexts. If it's a fantasy setting, you can probably work out a title that would be useful as a -san equivalent. If it's a real-world setting, then have the characters do what their American counterparts would do if that makes any sense at all.
 
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Next time I do a translation, I'm going to insert -masu at the end of every sentence by a character who's speaking in -masu form. Because how else would you be able to tell the difference between characters speaking in distal and direct form-masu? This is a very important part of the Japanese language-masu.
 
Next time I do a translation, I'm going to insert -masu at the end of every sentence by a character who's speaking in -masu form. Because how else would you be able to tell the difference between characters speaking in distal and direct form-masu? This is a very important part of the Japanese language-masu.

Be sure to also not translate any form of "I". It's very important to know the difference between watashi, atashi, ore, etc.

"Watashi am going to get some coffee-tachi at Tsukasa-kun-tachi's place -masu"

Makes perfect sense right? ;P
 
Be sure to also not translate any form of "I". It's very important to know the difference between watashi, atashi, ore, etc.

"Watashi am going to get some coffee-tachi at Tsukasa-kun-tachi's place -masu"

Makes perfect sense right? ;P

That's right! Because forms of "I" give lots of information about gender, age, social status, and personality that cannot be communicated any other way.
 
That's right! Because forms of "I" give lots of information about gender, age, social status, and personality that cannot be communicated any other way.
Though! This makes me wonder, what do you think would be the best way to translate this? Since to me it really seems like the fansubs didn't do the context justice:

[hide]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YJ3Wq2BVhc#t=14m26s[/hide]
 
Though! This makes me wonder, what do you think would be the best way to translate this? Since to me it really seems like the fansubs didn't do the context justice:

[hide]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YJ3Wq2BVhc#t=14m26s[/hide]

I'm not sure you could sub it in any way that would communicate what needs to be done there... but I'm not sure you need to. The voice acting, animation, and context does the work sufficiently, don't you think?
 
A major problem I would see in translating that scene is what an utterly unnatural use of Japanese it is. Wanking over what pronoun a character is using to that degree is extremely cheesy, even by anime standards.

So how do you turn that into English that sounds natural? You can't, it was totally stilted dialog to begin with. So the question is more "what kind of stilted, affected English dialog should I turn this into?"

I think the fansubbers actually handled that the right way by passing it off as B-movie repetition. I think a footnote attempting to analyze why Tieria's pronoun use was shifting might've obscured the scene's meaning even further. I would guess most fansub translators would assume that Tieria shifting to watashi at the end was a shift to feminine form, to match Virtue's bulky form giving way to reveal the "transgender" Nadleeh design.

Ah, but this is probably not what's happening in that scene. Any old-school Gundam fan worth his or her salt should know that watashi used by a male isn't a transgender use of pronoun, because male politicians and villains like Paptimus Scirocco do that in older Gundam shows all the time. When males use watashi form, it usually seems to be a way of indicating humility and submissiveness. In Gundam, of course, this humility is often false, sometimes bordering on total sarcasm.

When a transgender man in anime is speaking in a very transgender way, he tends to use either boku-- which is what everyday men use anyway, but ends up kind of conspicuous if used in anime at all-- or outright goes to atashi, which as far as I know is a strictly feminine form.

So what I think is actually happening in this scene is that we're seeing the extent to which revealing Nadleeh so early makes Tieria feel that he's failing Veda. He's actually using the male watashi form sincerely here. As his personal pronoun goes from an arrogant "ore" to the more polite "boku" and finally to the groveling "watashi," we see his escalating emotional grief at the mistake.

In English, you indicate shifts in attitude like that purely through tone of voice, not by word choice. An official release could do something with that by coaching the actor to behave a certain way during the line reads in the dub. A subtitled translation cannot do anything to footnote the scene that isn't just over-explaining what the seiyuu's reading of the lines makes perfectly clear anyway, Tieria's emotional distress.

Really, this scene stands the strongest chance of confusing viewers with 2-4 years of Japanese under their belts, because they'll assume that final watashi is a lot more significant than intended!
 

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