Kabuto - Still the best.

[Nassuman]

Tendou is badass!!

Where is this from?

 

[KR Hyper Kabuto]

The Kamen Rider: Climax Heroes game for the PS2.

 

[Black Fang]

So, there's no connection between Zect's president and the Zecters created by Zect...? I think the connection is pretty obvious.

You keep saying that, yet your arguments are weak. All you're saying is that Kabuto threw out a bunch of implications that we should assume meant this and that. That is not good writing. That is incompetence.

Sure, they could have explicitly shown that, but those actions makes sense even without a direct explanation, so they aren't a real problem. If Kagami's father had never been revealed to be working to undermine Zect itself there would be a problem, but, considering that revelation, those events aren't random at all.

Again, you are only assuming things. Riku's conspiracy has nothing to do with Drake and Sasword's origins. It was never implied. No connection was ever established that he had anything to do with them.

I can't remember the episode number, but it was after the last arc focused on him, but before Tsurugi's death. It was basically just a couple of suit-only cameos.

Anyway, Drake is the only Rider that is so uninvolved with the main plot. Even so, he had his own storylines which were backdrop for some decent episodes.

Why do people always say Daisuke's lack of relevance is defensible? What is the point of introducing a Rider if he has no relevance to the main plot? If he's going to be a "side" character then he should still have some connection to the main heroes. But all Daisuke did was appear in random episodes, fight the Worm of the day, and leave again. That's not being relevant. That's the writers showcasing Drake simply because he exists due to toy demands and they didn't know how to incorporate him into the story.

Huh... He kind of died afterwards, and had his plotline resolved (with the worms being mostly defeated alongside their leaders, only a few weak ones remaining, - besides the Natives, of course).

When was it ever implied that most of the Worms were wiped out? For all we know they could be hundreds more still in hiding.

Kick Hopper was defeated the 2nd form of the executive worm with the triple Rider kick alongside Tendou and Kagami.

So?

I liked their fighting style, but their personalities... eh, I'm pretty sure they were intended to be a parody of dark character types.

Their attitudes often were just too over the top to be taken seriously, but I always thought that was the point anyway, considering how most of the cast didn't take them seriously either (outside of battles).

Well sure, since the entire show itself became a self-parody, I guess that reasoning makes sense.

Opinion about the battle's quality is irrelevant to its importance.

It was the conclusion of the enemies that were around since the beginning of the show, a large scale battle against the almost entire remaining worm army at once. It wasn't a random team up or an irrelevant scene.

The Hoppers appear out of nowhere, with no real reason for being there at all, to help out the two Riders that still mattered to the plot. How the heck is that meaningful and non-random?

It was a battle in a much smaller scale than the last battle against the standard worms actually. Sure, it was the conclusion of the show and stopped a plan that could have destroyed humanity, but, in spite of its plot importance and the point it took place, it wasn't some giant battle that lasted hours, so lacking the presence of every Rider isn't weird at all.

So because the battle was "small-scale" Daisuke isn't needed? Your logic fails me.

 

[NeonZ]

You keep saying that, yet your arguments are weak. All you're saying is that Kabuto threw out a bunch of implications that we should assume meant this and that. That is not good writing. That is incompetence.

I personally disagree. If the action makes sense considering other information available, it doesn't need to be explicitly told. Obviously, you disagree and would have preferred a scene showing those events directly, but, just because you didn't like the execution, it doesn't mean those events didn't make sense.

Why do people always say Daisuke's lack of relevance is defensible? What is the point of introducing a Rider if he has no relevance to the main plot? If he's going to be a "side" character then he should still have some connection to the main heroes. But all Daisuke did was appear in random episodes, fight the Worm of the day, and leave again.

Why do you assume that the writers attempted to tie him to the main story? His actor often wasn't even available, leading to that suit-only cameo after his story arc was over, but his presence was required by the main plot. I highly doubt they ever intended to tie him seriously with the main plot.

He had his own stories and some of them were good (like the last one with that worm/woman), so he wasn't a total waste, even if he didn't add anything to the main plot.

When was it ever implied that most of the Worms were wiped out? For all we know they could be hundreds more still in hiding.

Because their leaders gathered a bunch of troops, manipulated by a Tsurugi who wanted to kill them. After that battle we only saw a few of the weak types that couldn't even clock up, with commentaries from various characters about how everything was fine since that battle.

So?

You were saying that he had done nothing before the final battle against the standard worms, I was just giving another example of a participation.

The Hoppers appear out of nowhere, with no real reason for being there at all, to help out the two Riders that still mattered to the plot. How the heck is that meaningful and non-random?

The Hopper's scenes often showed moments about the Hoppers attempting to go back to the "light". That was another of those scenes where they actually attempted to help other people again, rather than just dragging themselves to some meaningless "darkness".

After that episode, Tendo even talked casually with them, something that would never have taken place earlier in the series.

So because the battle was "small-scale" Daisuke isn't needed? Your logic fails me.

Because the battle was small scale, Daisuke's absence wasn't a plot hole or a problem with the construction of the story's internal logic. I'm not saying you must like it.

 

[MrMonk]

Generally I bow out of these because it's not worth my time as we've been over this before, but I just want to inject here.

You're arguing that fan conjecture is actually implicit storytelling. It is not.

For example, they never say where Daisuke receives the Drake Grip. It could be anything: he inherits it from someone else, (perhaps a father), found on the side of the road, recovered after an accident, a former ZECT member stole it. Anything. They literally never say how he came into contact with the Grip, nor how he knows how to use it. This is a horrible storytelling faux pas.

Sometimes these holes are explained away in expanded media, but that's also not the case here. Oddly enough, the God Speed Love continuity made more sense, as they were all a part of ZECT in some fashion.

Now, my issue isn't that you enjoyed the series in spite of this, it's merely that you're trying to justify that it's good storytelling. It's not, by any stretch of the term. I enjoyed Kabuto, but from a completely analytical prespective, it was the weakest of the Heisei series when it came to storytelling. Great characters (or sometimes caricatures) and awesome designs, but the story wasn't consistently strong when it came to storytelling. It had some powerful moments, but a number of them were connected with glue and tape.

Again, I'm glad you enjoy it. I'm not saying the show wasn't good. I loved it while I was watching it, and Kagami/Gatack is one of my favorite Riders. I patiently await the SICs. I love Diend in Decade even though from a storytelling perspective, he's only tangentially related to the overall plot. But it'd be silly of me to argue that he's a stronger plot element than he really is.

 

[NeonZ]

You're arguing that fan conjecture is actually implicit storytelling. It is not.

For example, they never say where Daisuke receives the Drake Grip. It could be anything: he inherits it from someone else, (perhaps a father), found on the side of the road, recovered after an accident, a former ZECT member stole it. Anything. They literally never say how he came into contact with the Grip, nor how he knows how to use it. This is a horrible storytelling faux pas.

I'm not saying that we know how he got it. However, we know that Zect made everything he uses, we know that he doesn't obey Zect and we know that Zect's president was plotting against Zect itself.

I'm not trying to create some conjecture about how Daisuke got it, I'm just saying that the henshin devices and Zecters ending up with people who don't work for Zect make sense considering the story of the show. How it got there isn't really important.

I enjoyed Kabuto, but from a completely analytical prespective, it was the weakest of the Heisei series when it came to storytelling.

I don't see how one could argue that Agito, Ryuki, Faiz, Hibiki and Den-O had better storytelling than Kabuto (Edit: I had forgotten Kiva, add it to that list). Those series often had direct contradictions to stated or demonstrated plot elements. Kabuto's biggest offenses were contradictions to a few early hints.

 

[aniking_8]

There a lot of plothole, but better then Den-O, which doesn't really have or even need a main plot since Imagins keep coming back while Kiva was aa drag.

 

[Nana]

I don't see how one could argue that Agito, Ryuki, Faiz, Hibiki and Den-O had better storytelling than Kabuto.

:eyebrow:

 

[Black Fang]

I'm not trying to create some conjecture about how Daisuke got it, I'm just saying that the henshin devices and Zecters ending up with people who don't work for Zect make sense considering the story of the show. How it got there isn't really important.

It's not important to know how a hero got to where he is? Are you kidding?

I don't see how one could argue that Agito, Ryuki, Faiz, Hibiki and Den-O had better storytelling than Kabuto.

:laugh: I think you need to rewatch certain shows.

 

[MrMonk]

I'm not saying that we know how he got it. However, we know that Zect made everything he uses, we know that he doesn't obey Zect and we know that Zect's president was plotting against Zect itself.

I'm not trying to create some conjecture about how Daisuke got it, I'm just saying that the henshin devices and Zecters ending up with people who don't work for Zect make sense considering the story of the show. How it got there isn't really important.

But it doesn't make sense. Two parts here.

One, storytelling guides the reader through A > B > C > D. Let's us Spider-Man for example. How exactly he gained his powers: A) Advanced Science happens, B) Advanced Science affects spider, C) spider bites Peter, D) Peter gains powers. The problem is, Drake's origin is like skipping from A to D. Sure you saw the advanced science, and now Peter has powers, so hey, he got them from advanced science! But B and C remain important from a storytelling perspective. They guide the reader through a series of events which they can understand. You don't have to show B and C necessarily, but you must at least name-drop them for the reader/viewer. This is basic storytelling.

Two, assuming you make the intuitive leap that Riku gave the Drake Grip to Daisuke, then you call into question motivation. Why Daisuke? Where had Riku met him? What special qualities drew Riku to give Daisuke Drake Grip and a Machine Zectron? Had he seen Daisuke save someone once? Did Daisuke buy a beer? Who knows? Motivations make characters who they are.

I don't see how one could argue that Agito, Ryuki, Faiz, Hibiki and Den-O had better storytelling than Kabuto. Those series often had direct contradictions to stated or demonstrated plot elements. Kabuto's biggest offenses were contradictions to a few early hints.

I'll bite. What contradictions were in Agito?

There a lot of plothole, but better then Den-O, which doesn't really have or even need a main plot since Imagins keep coming back while Kiva was aa drag.

Den-O dropped the narrative in the middle of the show from Imajin hijinks, but actually picked it up as they drew near the end. The main plot actually being the whole Hat Guy/Yuuto/Airi thing. Sure it had plot holes and important questions left unanswered (example: Why is Ryotaro a Singularity Point?)