Is Toqger really less Red-centric than Kyoryuger? I wouldn't bet on that.

[lazycoconut]

to Lazycoconut : While I agree that Kyoryu's subplots didn't have the focus that they deserved, I don't think Toqger really gave more focus to them : Mio's sympathy with Gritta for example : has it really been given more focus than Ian's rivalry with Aigalon? not sure of that; and I feel Torin's rivalry with Chaos has at least been given as much focus than Akira's rivalry with Schwartz; oh, and Tokatti's Mio obsession isn't really the kind of stuff that DESERVES focus, like Amy and Yayoi's Daigo obsession in Kyoryu.
You're mentioning the focus on the Shadow Line ; but my post was only dealing with the heroes, not the villains.

I agree the Tokacchi and Mio subplot is godawful and should not have happened at all. But it plays out over several episodes, it's ongoing, it incorporates a lot of their focus time, and it doesn't involve Right. Yes, all the ToQgers have sympathy for Gritta; but the show had a two-part episode to set up the idea of Mio having a special connection to her after they switch bodies, and this is referenced in most of Gritta's appearances. It is another ongoing connection that doesn't involve Right. Akira vs Schwarz does get more screen time than Torin vs Chaos, because Akira has his own focus episodes while Torin doesn't - so that subplot was always fitted in with something else.

By contrast, let's look at how Ian's rivalry with Dogold played out. There was his first focus episode, which just had a flashback to his friend's death (and that episode was about Daigo bringing Ian into the team.) There was the episode where he found out Aigaron was responsible, and even that was pretty brief; it wasn't the main story of the episode. Then there was the conclusion, where Ian barely featured - the focus was more on the Deboss plot, Aigaron learning the truth, and his feelings for Candelira. The whole thing was pretty sporadic and even when it did come up, the focus was not on Ian for long. So yes, I'd say Mio and Gritta's friendship is more prominent than that.

The Shadow Line focus is relevant, IMO, because it is a substantial part of the storyline that doesn't involve Right. (Much of the Z stuff does, but the others' scheming and infighting, and most of Gritta's storyline does not.) It means that the heroes occupy less of the story than the Kyoryugers did theirs, and that Right doesn't dominate the show.

Wouldn't it be interesting if, in that respect, Kagura was getting the focus rather than Right?

Yeah, I wish more had come of that. I know people didn't like the "Super Girl!" montages, but IMO she had the potential for an interesting character arc about having to overcome her comparative weaknesses. Initially, that was what it looked like: that the girls would be opposites, Kagura's character was about her determination to become strong despite starting out weak, while Mio's character was about how she was vulnerable despite seeming tough. But then Mio and Right started edging out Kagura, and she's ended up with little.

 

[live jetabare]

I agree the Tokacchi and Mio subplot is godawful and should not have happened at all. But it plays out over several episodes, it's ongoing, it incorporates a lot of their focus time, and it doesn't involve Right. Yes, all the ToQgers have sympathy for Gritta; but the show had a two-part episode to set up the idea of Mio having a special connection to her after they switch bodies, and this is referenced in most of Gritta's appearances. It is another ongoing connection that doesn't involve Right. Akira vs Schwarz does get more screen time than Torin vs Chaos, because Akira has his own focus episodes while Torin doesn't - so that subplot was always fitted in with something else.

By contrast, let's look at how Ian's rivalry with Dogold played out. There was his first focus episode, which just had a flashback to his friend's death (and that episode was about Daigo bringing Ian into the team.) There was the episode where he found out Aigaron was responsible, and even that was pretty brief; it wasn't the main story of the episode. Then there was the conclusion, where Ian barely featured - the focus was more on the Deboss plot, Aigaron learning the truth, and his feelings for Candelira. The whole thing was pretty sporadic and even when it did come up, the focus was not on Ian for long. So yes, I'd say Mio and Gritta's friendship is more prominent than that.

The Shadow Line focus is relevant, IMO, because it is a substantial part of the storyline that doesn't involve Right. (Much of the Z stuff does, but the others' scheming and infighting, and most of Gritta's storyline does not.) It means that the heroes occupy less of the story than the Kyoryugers did theirs, and that Right doesn't dominate the show.

Two part episode involving Mio and Gritta? the body switch only lasted one episode, and one can't say that Gritta feel a special connection to Mio. I fail to see how their connection is more strongly shown than Ian's with Aigalon.

About the rivalry Torin vs Chaos : the WHOLE STORYLINE of Kyoryuger is, deep down, the conflict between the two Deboss brothers, Chaos the destroyer vs Torin the protector, the Deboss generals being Chaos's allies, and the Kyoryuger, Torin's allies : Kyoryuger is as much Daigo's storyline as it is Torin's, it's probably even more Torin's : in fact, Daigo and Torin's roles in Kyoryuger reminds me in a way of those of Ryouga and Asuka in Aba : Red is the main character, but Kyoryuger is basically Torin's story while Abaranger is Asuka's ; and Torin has at least two major arcs involving his conflict with his Deboss identity, where he's in the center (the second half of the first Endolf arc, and the Bragigas intro arc), not counting all the arcs involving his relationship with Dantetsu. Akira and Schwartz are in a major subplot, but it's still a subplot.

Tokatti and Mio : I agree that it indeed takes some screentime ; but does it takes so much more screentime than for example, Nossan's family stuff, or all the arcs involving Souji, with his family and his schoolmate?

 

[lazycoconut]

Two part episode involving Mio and Gritta? the body switch only lasted one episode, and one can't say that Gritta feel a special connection to Mio. I fail to see how their connection is more strongly shown than Ian's with Aigalon.

About the rivalry Torin vs Chaos : the WHOLE STORYLINE of Kyoryuger is, deep down, the conflict between the two Deboss brothers, Chaos the destroyer vs Torin the protector, the Deboss generals being Chaos's allies, and the Kyoryuger, Torin's allies : Kyoryuger is as much Daigo's storyline as it is Torin's, it's probably even more Torin's ; and Torin has at least two major arcs involving his conflict with his Deboss identity, where he's in the center (the second half of the first Endolf arc, and the Bragigas intro arc), not counting all the arcs involving his relationship with Dantetsu. Akira and Schwartz are in a major subplot, but it's still a subplot.

Tokatti and Mio : I agree that it indeed takes some screentime ; but does it takes so much more screentime than for example, Nossan's family stuff, or all the arcs involving Souji, with his family and his schoolmate?

The body switch episode was the first of a two part episode focusing on Gritta. In the second part Mio became determined to protect Gritta after returning to her own body. In every subsequent episode where the ToQgers encounter Gritta, it is shown that Mio especially cares for her. My point being it's ongoing, whereas Ian vs Aigaron came up sporadically and was hastily, grudgingly resolved with little focus on Ian.

I strongly disagree that this is the focus of Kyoryuger or that "it is as much Torin's storyline as it is Daigo's."

Tokacchi/Mio gets a fair amount of screentime (leeching into the majority of their focus episodes) but more importantly it is ongoing and does not involve Right. A lot of Nossan's family stuff involved Daigo. Souji's "arcs" were mostly intermittent stuff that happened in one or two episodes, some of which also involved Daigo (like Souji's first focus episode involving his father.) It's no more substantial than, say, what Hikari gets: the kendama stuff, his family, and his enjoyment of detective stories. It's fun when it comes up in a focus episode, but does not amount to a real subplot or character arc. The closest Souji gets to this is his being trained to be Torin's successor - which is the subject of ONE focus episode.

 

[live jetabare]

The body switch episode was the first of a two part episode focusing on Gritta. In the second part Mio became determined to protect Gritta after returning to her own body. In every subsequent episode where the ToQgers encounter Gritta, it is shown that Mio especially cares for her. My point being it's ongoing, whereas Ian vs Aigaron came up sporadically and was hastily, grudgingly resolved with little focus on Ian.

It was more on a three part episodes, and Mio was pretty much in the background in the "Empress Gritta arc". The same can be said of the following arcs, especially the Christmas fight: Mio's concerns about Gritta don't get much more focus than the times Ian meet Aigalon and is the one who is the most furious against him.
About the Mio-Gritta plot : its relevance is gonna depend a lot of whether Gritta comes back in the two final episodes (which is likely, given Gritta's voice actress hasn't been seen yet with flowers), and how much Mio's gonna interact with her.

I strongly disagree that this is the focus of Kyoryuger or that "it is as much Torin's storyline as it is Daigo's."

Do you agree that it's at least a major plot point? Besides, plenty of Torin's backstory doesn't involve Daigo, like his past involving the Spirit rangers, or Utcchy?

Tokacchi/Mio gets a fair amount of screentime (leeching into the majority of their focus episodes) but more importantly it is ongoing and does not involve Right. A lot of Nossan's family stuff involved Daigo. Souji's "arcs" were mostly intermittent stuff that happened in one or two episodes, some of which also involved Daigo (like Souji's first focus episode involving his father.) It's no more substantial than, say, what Hikari gets: the kendama stuff, his family, and his enjoyment of detective stories. It's fun when it comes up in a focus episode, but does not amount to a real subplot or character arc. The closest Souji gets to this is his being trained to be Torin's successor - which is the subject of ONE focus episode.

Fair point : but I feel that we're gonna have to wait until the end of the show to see how REALLY relevant it is, especially since it's been pretty static in most of the show. Besides, given I don't like the way that arc is written, I guess I might be biased because I pretty much tried to forget it.
Besides, one has also to consider that Toqger has a much smaller cast than Kyoryuger, which means that they are able to get more focus episode per character, while Kyoryuger, with its final 15 ranger cast (compared with 6 in Toqger) is forced to give a smaller number of focus episodes to each character (with the obvious exception of Daigo)

 

[lazycoconut]

It was more on a three part episodes, and Mio was pretty much in the background in the "Empress Gritta arc". The same can be said of the following arcs, especially the Christmas fight: Mio's concerns about Gritta don't get much more focus than the times Ian meet Aigalon and is the one who is the most furious against him.
About the Mio-Gritta plot : its relevance is gonna depend a lot of whether Gritta comes back in the two final episodes (which is likely, given Gritta's voice actress hasn't been seen yet with flowers), and how much Mio's gonna interact with her.

All of that is true. But because it comes up more often and is spread out across the show (no matter how important it actually is) that's more times when characters are doing something not involving Right. And, as you point out, the Empress Gritta arc didn't involve Right at all.

Do you agree that it's at least a major plot point? Besides, plenty of Torin's backstory doesn't involve Daigo, like his past involving the Spirit rangers, or Utcchy?

I do agree it's a major plot point. It's just one that didn't come up until very late in the game, so its impact is limited.

Fair point : but I feel that we're gonna have to wait until the end of the show to see how REALLY relevant it is, especially since it's been pretty static in most of the show. Besides, given I don't like the way that arc is written, I guess I might be biased because I pretty much tried to forget it.
Besides, one has also to consider that Toqger has a much smaller cast than Kyoryuger, which means that they are able to get more focus episode per character, while Kyoryuger, with its final 15 ranger cast (compared with 6 in Toqger) is forced to give a smaller number of focus episodes to each character (with the obvious exception of Daigo)

I agree, the whole thing is horrible

It is true that ToQger has room to give each character more spotlight - although both shows have only six characters awarded individual focus episodes (five core Rangers + one Sixth.) And conversely, with a smaller cast, ToQ should have been the show that was more easily dominated by its Red ...

 

[live jetabare]

All of that is true. But because it comes up more often and is spread out across the show (no matter how important it actually is) that's more times when characters are doing something not involving Right. And, as you point out, the Empress Gritta arc didn't involve Right at all.

Yeah, there is a very true point : Toqger doesn't revolve around Right as much as Kyoryuger revolve around Daigo; but with Toqger, we're talking about a show where the heroes are more often than not becoming supporting characters of their own show : heck, most of the big arcs are more about a Shadow Line civil war than the Toqger vs the Shadow Line : it seems that Kobayashi, to try to avoid plot stalling like in her previous shows (Go-Busters, Den-O, and even Shinkenger), inserted the infighting among the Shadow Line to make the audience be patient until the final resolution, which, to be honest, could have been done only a few episodes after Zett's first appearance without changing much of the core Rainbow vs Shadow conflict. So, it's no wonder the show doesn't much revolve around Right... it's too focused on its antagonists

I do agree it's a major plot point. It's just one that didn't come up until very late in the game, so its impact is limited.

Not really : the reveal of Torin's identity is done in episode 28, midway through the show, which isn't "very late".
Moreover, several elements shown before made that reveal not feel like it's coming from nowhere : Torin's non human nature, his long lifespan, since he was alive when Ramirez, Tessai were alive, and when Ucchy wasn't yet possessed by Dogold. Torin had a big knowledge about the Deboss: him being one can explain a lot, not unlike Master Kaku being a Gorma was done in Dairanger.
Lastly, Torin's relationship with the Spirit rangers is highlighted in very early episodes.

It is true that ToQger has room to give each character more spotlight - although both shows have only six characters awarded individual focus episodes (five core Rangers + one Sixth.) And conversely, with a smaller cast, ToQ should have been the show that was more easily dominated by its Red ...

Toqger has the same number of main rangers as Kyoryuger, but a much smaller supporting cast, which isn't really explored, while Kyoryuger had a big supporting cast, with much more focus.
Besides, the real reason Toqger wasn't dominated by its Red ... was because Toqger wasn't dominated by the Toqgers as well.

 

[Hangyakuno]

Well, mostly Toqger dominated plot is their travel from town to town while gaining bit by bit their memories. Conflict that involve them is only their own worries and how they console their teammate, later they add conflict Right-Zett and Akira-Shwartz too. There is not much heroes-villain conflict story that can be compared to Kyoryuger at this point. Their only clash with villain is mostly just when saving some town from their clutch. Even Gritta part is mainly because Zett that later used to reveal his problem and Right. Rather than not dominate their plot, I just see it as two main story, Rainbow Line Story and Shadow Line Story. Shadow Line Story is filled by chaos and make it more interesting to called it as plot. But Rainbow Line Story have it too, it is just have more peaceful solution than Shadow Line story.

Opposite of that,Kyoryuger handled by Sanjo have rich story with almost all cast have their own problem that mostly not small matter. The only one I think is Amy, whose her problem is just her butler but later approve and even support her doing her heroic job. Sanjo bring new breath just like how Urobutchi is, who i think if given more chance later at toku will show some slip up just like Sanjo is. But, like i said before, that is Sanjo strong and also weak point where he often put their ongoing problem only have depth at past and really easy to be solved and just leave -almost none- a bit aftereffect. He like to make big lump of mistery but just info-dumping it at some point to make twist. I, myself, feel that so wasted. I can't feel their member have connection beside their problem get solved by their King.

But back to our main topic, I think now you agree that Kyoryuger is most red-centris sentai until now.

 

[live jetabare]

But back to our main topic, I think now you agree that Kyoryuger is most red-centris sentai until now.

I'd say it that way ; Kyoryuger is indeed very Red centric, but Sanjo tried to give to most of the others rangers some subplot. Toqger is perhaps less Red-centric, but it's mostly because it's less focused on its heroes than Kyoryuger : notably because of their common background, the Toqgers sometimes feel like a more homogeneous entity, with Red and Orange standing out, Red because of his rivalry with Zett and Orange/ Akira because of his Shadow background.

 

[Hangyakuno]

I'd say it that way ; Kyoryuger is indeed very Red centric, but Sanjo tried to give to most of the others rangers some subplot. Toqger is perhaps less Red-centric, but it's mostly because it's less focused on its heroes than Kyoryuger : notably because of their common background, the Toqgers sometimes feel like a more homogeneous entity, with Red and Orange standing out, Red because of his rivalry with Zett and Orange/ Akira because of his Shadow background.

I can't grasp what you mean. It is rare to have many sentai member own personal dispute with villain anyway.
If what you mean is their past problem plot, Toq stand as same as Kyoryu but maybe not as complicated as like them. If personal dispute with villain, Kyoryu just have Torin-Chaos to help with their plot. Ian just hate Aigolon guts, he hate him or not will not affect plot much. While other member subplot, no matter how much, have no connection with their main plot, beside to make reason for new Spirit Ranger who came later. And talk about their subplot, almost everything is connected and solved by Daigo.
Mio problem solved by Kagura and Tokatti. Hikari problem solved by Right and Kagura. Tokatti problem solved by Hikari and Mio. Kagura problem solved by Hikari and Mio. Right and Akira problem solved by everyone. Just a bit those problem have connection with Shadow Line but it give better understanding about each other member. You can see how atmosphere on Toq Ressha is changed to be better than the first time they are onboard.

Kyoryuger is most Red-centric because everything is connected by Daigo. While Toqger is less Red-centric because Right never hog any attention at all, they are share their portion when solve problem. Akira maybe but he is standing out because his personality and past is a bit different from other. It is usual for Red have rivalry with Villain boss, and their important connection is for climax. Akira and Right just do their portion to bring out climax point just like how Daigo do. Torin maybe start it but in the end Daigo is the one who solve the problem.

 

[live jetabare]

I can't grasp what you mean. It is rare to have many sentai member own personal dispute with villain anyway.
If what you mean is their past problem plot, Toq stand as same as Kyoryu but maybe not as complicated as like them. If personal dispute with villain, Kyoryu just have Torin-Chaos to help with their plot. Ian just hate Aigolon guts, he hate him or not will not affect plot much. While other member subplot, no matter how much, have no connection with their main plot, beside to make reason for new Spirit Ranger who came later. And talk about their subplot, almost everything is connected and solved by Daigo.
Mio problem solved by Kagura and Tokatti. Hikari problem solved by Right and Kagura. Tokatti problem solved by Hikari and Mio. Kagura problem solved by Hikari and Mio. Right and Akira problem solved by everyone. Just a bit those problem have connection with Shadow Line but it give better understanding about each other member. You can see how atmosphere on Toq Ressha is changed to be better than the first time they are onboard.

Kyoryuger is most Red-centric because everything is connected by Daigo. While Toqger is less Red-centric because Right never hog any attention at all, they are share their portion when solve problem. Akira maybe but he is standing out because his personality and past is a bit different from other. It is usual for Red have rivalry with Villain boss, and their important connection is for climax. Akira and Right just do their portion to bring out climax point just like how Daigo do. Torin maybe start it but in the end Daigo is the one who solve the problem.

I see what you mean, and it's indeed an issue with Kyoryuger, with Daigo being involved in all the sub-plots which involve the other characters, unlike what happens with Toqger, where Right is often left out of episodes focusing on other characters.
The only element is that outside their focus episodes, the Toqger feel more often than not like background characters : in Kyoryuger, I felt that the other rangers were more explored than the other rangers in Toqger, even if, indeed, Daigo was much more stealing the spotlight.