Do you feel that Decade kinda went overboard?

Black Fang said:

Am I the only one who finds this whole thing a tad repugnant?

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It's not housewives liking the show that's "repugnant," but how hard Toei tries to cater to them, and has twisted the show into something that doesn't resemble itself to cater to this crowd. They've gone from casting whoever is most appropriate for the role to casting nobody but (mostly) former model types for the women viewers. Kamen Rider has gone from a cyborg dude fighting crazy renegade Nazis to a male bimbo fighting to make sure he's the best cook/make-up artist/hairstylist/model. I mean, remember when Kamen Rider used to be about heroes saving people?!?! Seems like Blade's the last one to care about that, and Ryuki before Blade.

There's been a long history of certain characters or actors from a tokusatsu show that will catch on with women viewers (Changeman's Kazuoki Takahashi comes to mind), but the difference is that it never affected the actual material until these Heisei Rider shows. It mostly started with the style change the franchise took, this wannabe-drama approach. Kuuga producer Shigenori Takatera wanted to change the face of henshin hero shows, and he did, but he still kept the soul of a hero show, the soul of Kamen Rider. Agito pretty much followed suit, and Ryuki did at the start, but that's where the franchise started to go off-track, really. That's where Takatera's original intention was warped, IMO. It's no longer a hero show, really.

Shougo B'Stard said:

It's not housewives liking the show that's "repugnant," but how hard Toei tries to cater to them, and has twisted the show into something that doesn't resemble itself to cater to this crowd. They've gone from casting whoever is most appropriate for the role to casting nobody but (mostly) former model types for the women viewers. Kamen Rider has gone from a cyborg dude fighting crazy renegade Nazis to a male bimbo fighting to make sure he's the best cook/make-up artist/hairstylist/model. I mean, remember when Kamen Rider used to be about heroes saving people?!?! Seems like Blade's the last one to care about that, and Ryuki before Blade.

There's been a long history of certain characters or actors from a tokusatsu show that will catch on with women viewers (Changeman's Kazuoki Takahashi comes to mind), but the difference is that it never affected the actual material until these Heisei Rider shows. It mostly started with the style change the franchise took, this wannabe-drama approach. Kuuga producer Shigenori Takatera wanted to change the face of henshin hero shows, and he did, but he still kept the soul of a hero show, the soul of Kamen Rider. Agito pretty much followed suit, and Ryuki did at the start, but that's where the franchise started to go off-track, really. That's where Takatera's original intention was warped, IMO. It's no longer a hero show, really.

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I can disagree with none of this.

Kamen Rider moved from being an artistic endeavor, to an extended commercial vehicle. At some point, Toei found they made much more money appealing to young boys and housewives, than they did to the classic Rider fans. As such, the show followed suit.

EDIT: You can see a similar trend in another large Japanese franchise, Gundam. Realigning character designs in order to draw in an alternate fanbase other than classic fans. (In this case, females) But the difference is Gundam rejiggers the main production team completely with each iteration, while Kamen Rider does not seem to have as much turnaround. Thus, Gundam is a bit tighter and more experimental, as a production team only gets another shot if the show they created is popular. You still get duds (see SEED Destiny) but when the next show comes around, you get something new.

Shougo B'Stard said:

It's not housewives liking the show that's "repugnant," but how hard Toei tries to cater to them, and has twisted the show into something that doesn't resemble itself to cater to this crowd.

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I was referring more to the idea of how there can be all these married women swooning over a bunch of male models/actors. There's something about that whole image that bothers me.

I would even venture a bet that it's actually not about physical attraction but more like how women will comment in a general way on how nice a young man looks and behaves. The typical gossip. But someone somewhere mistook it as a bunch of women enamored over younger men, posted it online, and the rest is history.

Shougo B'Stard said:

I mean, remember when Kamen Rider used to be about heroes saving people?!?! Seems like Blade's the last one to care about that, and Ryuki before Blade.

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I always thought Den-O did this pretty well, when it didn't totally focus on the Taros' antics. Being able to focus on the various contract holders with the different Imagin always made me feel a deeper connection to the person being saved, at least in the early half, it seemed like that was forgotten as it went on.

Kamen Rider has gone from a cyborg dude fighting crazy renegade Nazis to a male bimbo fighting to make sure he's the best cook/make-up artist/hairstylist/model.

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Sure, the casting choices are more uniform now, but I don't see how the changes are nearly as dramatic as you say. The only Rider ever whose character got remotely close to what you suggest (Drake from Kabuto) wasn't even an important character.

Kamen Rider moved from being an artistic endeavor, to an extended commercial vehicle. At some point, Toei found they made much more money appealing to young boys and housewives, than they did to the classic Rider fans. As such, the show followed suit.

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What? The target audience always has been young boys. Always. That's why most of the old toku series almost drowned themselves in pointless episodes throughout their run.

That's where Takatera's original intention was warped, IMO. It's no longer a hero show, really.

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Saying that it's not a hero show just due to casting choices is ridiculous. Look at one of the more recent series, Kabuto. Kagami had almost 20 episodes of character development just to become an actual hero, to the detriment of the titular character even, who only started developing afterwards. That's a greater actual focus on "hero" than any number of random episodic plots about a kamen rider facing random monsters.

I don't know... sometimes I just can't believe the nostalgia for old tokus I see online. I'm not saying that they weren't good, but they generally all had problems too. There isn't a fabled "golden age".

Old shows often suffered from large stretches of episodic plots where nothing at all happened, repetitive plot set ups (mainly for old Sentais, which more often than not featured a random military-like organization preparing everything for the heroes, even if it had no thematic connection to the show at all (see Maskman), only really stopping as a trend with Zyuranger in the 90s), seemed to be incapable of acknowledging their limits, often creating many scenes of horribly executed drama (see the first episode of Jetman, which fell flat everytime it tried to show the character's feelings).

NeonZ said:

Sure, the casting choices are more uniform now, but I don't see how the changes are nearly as dramatic as you say. The only Rider ever whose character got remotely close to what you suggest (Drake from Kabuto) wasn't even an important character.

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You're using one flaw (Daisuke's irrelevance as a character) to justify another?

NeonZ said:

What? The target audience always has been young boys. Always. That's why most of the old toku series almost drowned themselves in pointless episodes throughout their run.

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Tokus used to air during prime time, and targeted the family in general in certain aspects rather than exclusively on kids.

NeonZ said:

I don't know... sometimes I just can't believe the nostalgia for old tokus I see online. I'm not saying that they weren't good, but they generally all had problems too. There isn't a fabled "golden age".

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Lies!

Just how many old shows have you actually seen?

NeonZ said:

Old shows often suffered from large stretches of episodic plots where nothing at all happened, repetitive plot set ups

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And how is that any different from the first half of Den-O, all of Go-Onger, The Geki Arms' debuts, Kabuto's intros of the secondary Riders, Dekaranger, Boukenger, Decade....

NeonZ said:

seemed to be incapable of acknowledging their limits, often creating many scenes of horribly executed drama (see the first episode of Jetman, which fell flat everytime it tried to show the character's feelings).

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As opposed to what? Give us an example of a show that used drama better. How was Jetman's drama horrible anyway?

Call me crazy, but this post seems more like a venting of annoyance over newer shows getting less fanfare by many fans than older ones.

You're using one flaw (Daisuke's irrelevance as a character) to justify another?

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I was just saying that what he said clearly isn't true at all.

The kind of actor casted has changed? Sure. The characters have changed? Sure, but they didn't become idol-types (the characters, not actors), besides this one secondary character from Kabuto.

Just how many old shows have you actually seen?

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70s: Only a single KR 1 movie and JAKQ vs Goranger.

80s Sentais: Goggle 5, Changeman, Flashman, Maskman. I've mostly watched them dubbed though, only a few subbed ones (mainly season finales).

90s Sentai: Jetman (I'm watching this one currently, subbed), Dairanger, Megaranger

Other old tokus: KR Black, KR Black RX, Jaspion, Spielvan, Jiraya, Jiban, Winspector, Solbrain, Machineman.

And how is that any different from the first half of Den-O, all of Go-Onger, The Geki Arms' debuts, Kabuto's intros of the secondary Riders, Dekaranger, Boukenger, Decade....

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Huh? I think there has been some mix up somewhere... I was talking about the completely episodic structure of many old shows. Look at... say... KR Black.

After the first few episodes, there's a huge lull of episodes that could be basically aired in any order without changing anything. There's no character development, no change of the villains, no new characters or weapons... nothing.

Only when Shadow Moon appears things start moving again (there's a single other breakaway point beforehand: the episode that introduced the second bike).

Current episodic shows constantly avoid that kind of trap, even though they keep their episodic structure.

Look at Boukenger. Even if the precious and adventures generally have no relation to each other, they more often than not used episodes to add something to the series. Initially, introducing the enemy factions separately, then the new mechas, then enemy team up, then new enemies and 6th ranger, other new mecha, team upgrade, episodes focusing on the 6th's relationship with each member, etc.

Of course, not every show worked like that. Jiraya often introduced secondary characters that returned in further episodes and even some of its completely standalone episodes were very different from usual ones (like the one about some witch getting unearthed).

As opposed to what? Give us an example of a show that used drama better. How was Jetman's drama horrible anyway?

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I mentioned Jetman's 1st episode, I can't really comment about the series in general yet. It was just too rushed. There was no emotional connection to the characters and they all switched emotions from one extreme to the other almost instantly.

FreedomR8G6B1 said:

Yeah, the opening scene of the Rider War made him look like Jesus and all...but...with all the multiple things happening with the overall series...did Toei went a tad bit overboard?:sly:

I mean compared with the other Anniversary Stuff...remember Kabuto being the 35th Anniversary?:laugh:

Or is it still a Den-O World for them?:redface2:

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No because Decade out the gate was obviously intended to be one thing and that is fanservice for fans of previous Heisei shows and to try to get people interested in the previous ones.

Honestly as a fan, it has done a decent job. It doesn't capture the essence of any of the shows but it showed interesting variations on similar themes present in them. As an anniversary project, until the show is complete and I see the Decade: All Riders movie I can't say if it was good or not. As a stand alone tribute to the previous shows in this decade, it isn't bad.


The opening scene was meant to grab your attention and it did that, the Jesus reference you are seeing is just meant to show how powerful he is, as Jesus outside of works of fiction and some art never floated around in pink light while in a canyon shooting lasers.


The only real thing that they went overboard with might be the Final Form Rides and Decade's complete form.

People that bash new stuff for being new, or old stuff for being old... That **** is just as lame as the people who are I ONLY LIKE NEW STUFF or I ONLY LIKE OLD STUFF.