Concerns I have re: Shout Factory's Kakuranger

[Aoi Kurenai]

So is there any way to actually talk to someone from Shout Factory about this? As long as we're just discussing this among ourselves, nothing is accomplished, and there's still danger of Kakuranger being an incomprehensible clusterfrag (which would result in poor sales, and thus, no more sentai seasons... which would make me a sad panda -__- )

These releases are so niche that people are probably going to end up buying them regardless of the quality, probably in hopes of seeing their favorite Sentai brought over officially one day. I think that's the reason Sentai remains Sentai - it's easily recognizable to fans and seems like this interesting oddity to anyone else who happens upon it. There was a pretty interesting review of Dairanger in the LA Times and the reviewer didn't seem to be put off by the quality of the subs.

Like, I can see that it might turn off people, but we're not in the early 90s anymore. Japan and Japanese words aren't these spooky audience deterrents that they have no hope of ever understanding. Sometimes it's fun to just go into something being lost and understanding things as you go along.

 

[Edmond Dantes]

Yeah, I love how this somehow became all about minor stuff like "whether 'Sentai' should be 'Squadron'" when my initial worries were about actual real problems like the series expecting you know know Japanese mythology and the inevitable translation issues that might crop up from an English-speaking character who still very persistently uses the Japanese terminology (which Shout could easily decide to translate anyway, which would cause further confusion).

Zyuranger and Dairanger I'm not surprised survived--they're not exactly nuanced or complicated shows. To all appearances, Kakuranger IS. Moreso since its a comedy. I, for example, had no effing clue what was up with the storyteller dude before I read the notes.

Altho I do think that, since we already have a fansub that translates the mecha names, then the official sub should keep whatever was on the toy boxes.

 

[SamuraiEchidna]

Rolls off the tongue well?? Are you kidding? It's so much easier to say 'Saima' than 'Catastrophiend'. Besides, it's a proper name for the family. Would you translate the name 'Corleone' (if it had a meaning) from the Godfather series just because it's Italian?

If translating everything is so crucial to you, then I really think translation notes are the way to go in some cases. At a certain point it does become ridiculous.

First of all, no, I'm not kidding. And I'm not talking about what's easier to say. I have no problem saying the word Saima. I'm saying that by itself, it has no meaning. I like Imagination Station's choice to translate it out just in case. Do you have a problem with my personal preference?

Second, would I translate Corleone? If I was in charge of releasing Godfather to the world, and the original creators wanted me to translate it, then yes. I would. But if they told me otherwise, I'd leave it alone. Like I said, it's not my call to make. It's not anyone's call other than the original creators. It's their vision, not ours.

Thirdly, having translator's notes can also get just as ridiculous. I shouldn't have to rely on them to fully enjoy whatever I'm watching. It's one thing if I'm talking about fansubs because those notes can be interesting little afterthoughts on their websites, but we're talking about a finished product. I don't want translators notes cluttering up the screen on a retail release of a TV show/movie. I don't want to feel like I HAVE to read a booklet that's been included. I just want to enjoy the show.

This is so funny. Shout! translated Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger to Dinosaur Squadron Zyuranger and people complained.

~Snip~

And no, just because they leave a word out does not mean people are going to feel alienated. It's not like it is dubbed, it's subtitled. People don't want a fully Americanized translation, they want something as accurate as possible. Keeping the names and titles in their Japanese is keeping it accurate.

People complained about ZyuRanger's title translation? That'd be a first to me. I haven't heard any complaining.

Also, I'd avoid speaking on behalf of the people. I know you're generalizing, but everyone's different. There are plenty of people, professional or otherwise, who agree with what I'm saying. If you're going to translate, then translate. If you're not, then don't. But don't half-&-half it then hold the audience hostage over it. What sounds easier to say, what sounds cooler in its original language, all that kind of stuff has no baring on translating something. If anything, it's a slippery slope that will just make translations more unbearable to read/listen to.

Take for example the animes Bleach and Death Note.
Both have their own version of shinigami's. However, in the official translation of Bleach, they translate it as "Soul Reapers". Whereas in Death Note, they leave it untranslated, and I don't actually recall a moment in the dubbed dialogue or the subs where they explicitly explain that Shinigami means Reaper. And without that kind of explanation, someone who doesn't know any better might not be able to figure out what the word means. Without having prior knowledge or without looking it up online, it would be EASY to mistakenly think that Shinigami is just another word for a type of demon or monster.

The same kind of logic goes for the words Sentai and Saima. The Japanese words might be easier to say, and you might be okay with leaving it untranslated in your subs. But the only reason you're okay with it is because YOU ALL READY KNOW WHAT IT MEANS. You all ready know Sentai means Squadron because you've been part of this fandom long enough to have found out from someone or something. You all ready know that Catastrophiend is an acceptable translation of Saima because Imagination Station wanted to be extra helpful. But people who are coming into this fresh and blind will have no idea what it means. Thus, it becomes just another Japanese word that doesn't really mean anything. If I was working for Shout Factory as a translator, and Toei told me not to translate the name "Saima Clan", then I wouldn't. But if I suggested an acceptable translation, and they were okay with it, then I'd stick with the translation.

Like, I can see that it might turn off people, but we're not in the early 90s anymore. Japan and Japanese words aren't these spooky audience deterrents that they have no hope of ever understanding. Sometimes it's fun to just go into something being lost and understanding things as you go along.

Again, it's not about scaring or alienating people. It's about how people might get the wrong idea about what these random Japanese words mean if there is no explain or if the contextual clues aren't strong enough. Sure, in the DaiRanger release, there is contextual clues about what "Gosei" means. They translated the roll call as "Shining in the heavens, Five-Stars!" But that's not the same as explaining that Gosei means Five-Stars. And the average newcomer to all this probably wouldn't piece that together. Why would they? There's been no dialogue to connect the two words.

 

[Dr Kain]

Except if someone doesn't know that Shinigami means God of Death, they can look it up.

I think your problem is that you think the general audience is full of brain dead morons who are too lazy to do anything. While that may be true, if someone really wants to know, they can easily grab their phone and look up what a Shinigami is. It doesn't take rocket science. Plus, hey, heaven forbid the audience has to go and learn something new that Fox News or a politician didn't teach them.

Also, I had no idea Saima Clan meant Castrophiend/Disaster Demon until Imagination Station told me. I've been watching GoGoV since 2004 and I never knew that. I never cared either. Why? Because it is irrelevant. What their name means holds no bearing over the show's story telling and quality. Not every name is required to mean something. Plus, seeing the subtitles read Catastrophiend whenever I hear Saima is weird and takes me out of the show for a moment. It was an unnecessary translation.

Finally, the Sentai audience is comprised of this:

1. Toku fans who already know everything there is to know about the show.
2. Power Rangers fans curious to see the original, but don't care about the exact translation of the name.
3. Children who don't care about the exact translation either, they just want to see cool fights.

 

[SamuraiEchidna]

Except if someone doesn't know that Shinigami means God of Death, they can look it up.

I think your problem is that you think the general audience is full of brain dead morons who are too lazy to do anything. While that may be true, if someone really wants to know, they can easily grab their phone and look up what a Shinigami is. It doesn't take rocket science. Plus, hey, heaven forbid the audience has to go and learn something new that Fox News or a politician didn't teach them.

That's quiet the assumption you've made about me. It's wrong, by the way. I don't see anyone that way. You probably said that in an attempt to insult me, but I won't play that game. And thanks for missing my point all together. Because I'm not talking about how easy it is to look something up. Anyone can look things up. Anyone can take the time to learn some Japanese. Anyone can take the time to improve themselves. Should it be a requirement to enjoy a simple TV show? No. I love the Japanese language just as much as anyone. I want to become fluent in the language one day. But never would I speak like a weaboo in front of others if they weren't cool with it, and never would I ask anyone to "just know" the meaning behind any Japanese word I randomly spout. Take a class in Japanese, find a professor who teaches it, feel free to contact them and see what they have to say about leaving random words untranslated. You might be enlightened.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you're job is to translate, then translate. If you're not going to translate, then don't.

Japanese is not some golden idol language. The Japanese race is not going to be offended that we dared to translate their precious language. And no one should be asked to gather the meaning of random Japanese words through osmosis. The only time a Japanese word should be left untranslated is when the original creators say so. That's most likely why a word like Shinigami was left untranslated in Death Note, because the original creator wanted it that way. Leaving words untranslated does not preserve their culture. Language is just a form of communication. There are others ways to honor and preserve a culture than leaving certain words untranslated. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is some major cultural dynamic to the word "Sentai" that I'm not seeing. Please forgive me for not knowing that the Japanese had a trademark on their version of the word "Squadron". I'd like to know what kind of cultural relevance I am losing other than "this is how you say _____ in another language." Heaven forbid I go on being insensitive to another culture for not knowing something that apparently should be super obvious despite not having grown up or been around that culture.

I find it very funny how people talk so much about what we lose in a translation, like that's the only thing worth focusing on. Yeah, in any translation, we are bound to lose something. Whether you depend on subs or dubs, if you've never taken any lessons in Japanese before, you are pretty much dependent on what the translation is giving you.
But the good thing about a good translation?
Even if you lose something, it's small to the point of not even being note worthy. If the translation is REALLY good, you might actually gain just as much as you lost, if not more so. And yet no one bothers to talk about what you gained or what a translation did right... How odd. I think it's just sensationalism at it's best, really. People can be so afraid of losing the tiniest little details in a translation that they confuse it with other things like whitewashing and censoring, which are completely different BTW. A true translation doesn't censor or hide information. A translation will give you the intended message, vision, and experience.

 

[Dr Kain]

Uh what? I wasn't insulting you at all. I don't even know where you got the idea I was insulting you.

I will speak Japanese to people just for the sake of it. I don't see an issue with it. I also have no idea the hell "weaboo" means.

 

[SamuraiEchidna]

A weeaboo (I've seen it spelled other ways, so forgive me if I try out those other spellings) is basically someone pretending to be Japanese, even though they aren't. All their information about Japan tends to come from anime, and they take pleasure in throwing in random Japanese into their English sentences because they think Japanese is a superior language. An example of talking like a weeaboo:

Sugoi! I hope my senpai-chan notices me! That would make me Doki Doki. I have to tell my nakama about this after we eat our bentos! We're so kawaii desu ne!

So, yeah. No offence, but if you think that's socially acceptable, and if you enjoy talking like that, you might be a weeaboo. And unless you're hanging out with friends who are okay with that, you should probably not talk like that. Because you're not speaking one language, and you're kind of being insulting to both. Better to just pick a language and stick with it. That's why weeaboos love things like TV-Nihon's fansubs. It gives them that artificial Japanese high they crave.

 

[Dr Kain]

Except, that is not what I do. I just say things like Arigatou when thanking someone or Ohayo Gozaimasu when I greet coworkers in the mornings.

I didn't learn my Japanese from anime. My g/f and I were originally trying to go to Japan to teach English through Nova back in 2005 (glad that never happened though), so we were both studying Japanese. I used to know how to read and write every katakana character without thinking about it. I haven't done it in so long though that it takes me awhile to remember which character is what at times.

 

[SamuraiEchidna]

Well then, good for you, Dr Kain. In fact, more power to you! But hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from. You're educated in Japanese, at least somewhat. But that doesn't mean the average person is.

We, as a fandom, have come pretty far. I'd like to think that most of us have wised up by now and have stopped tolerating TV-Nihon's translation decisions. We've called them out on their choices many times and demand better translating quality over flashy sub effects and random words left untranslated. Am I making a big deal about translating the word "Sentai?" Maybe, maybe not. But it just seems weird that most of us have stopped tolerating that kind of thing from fansubs, but if it's an official product, we consider it acceptable. And again, if it was Toei saying "Leave the word Sentai untranslated in every instance", then I wouldn't be talking about this at all. But Shout Factory said they were trying to please the fans and make their translations "more like fansubs", and I feel like they might have gotten some bad advice there. Especially when fansub groups all have their different beliefs and translating values. Some I hold in higher regards than others, but that's beside the point.

My hope is that Shout Factory reconsiders how the title is translated. If it skews the understanding or enjoyment of the show, especially to the point of being awkward, then they should reconsider. I remember, in Kyoryuger VS Go-Busters, one of the enemies referred to the ZyuRangers, AbaRangers, and Kyoryugers all as Dinosaur Squads (Kyoryu Sentai). But technically, only ZyuRanger is the Dinosaur Squad. AbaRanger is the Burstosaur Squad (Bakuryu Sentai) and Kyoryuger is the Voltosaur Squad (Zyuden Sentai). And thus to me, if you combine this fact with how the team name is spelled out in Katakana and not Kanji, that pretty much varifies what I've always believed. The first half of the naming scheme (which usually includes the word Sentai) is NOT a proper name, it's just an identifier/rank/descriptor. It's informal. It SHOULD be translated. The other half of the naming pattern (the one that usually contains the word Ranger or Man) is the former, proper name. It doesn't need to be translated.

The only reason why I say that "Sentai" should be translated when talking about each team (DaiRanger, ZyuRanger, etc.) is because we all ready have "SUPER SENTAI" written on the box for the Shout Factory releases. It even comes up in most searches for it. I get that the fandom identifies with the word, but I thought Shout Factory had found a happy medium. Call the franchise as a whole Super Sentai, but then translate the word in-show.

 

[SquidKing]

Except, that is not what I do. I just say things like Arigatou when thanking someone or Ohayo Gozaimasu when I greet coworkers in the mornings.

I didn't learn my Japanese from anime. My g/f and I were originally trying to go to Japan to teach English through Nova back in 2005 (glad that never happened though), so we were both studying Japanese. I used to know how to read and write every katakana character without thinking about it. I haven't done it in so long though that it takes me awhile to remember which character is what at times.

If it helps at all, I'm fully on your side with this very strange conflict here. I'm sure all that could be done is to move on.