Anita Sarkeesian: I Am Not A Gamer

[KingOfCaramel]

Sure. I'm curious. Though, no offense intended, you seem to have a much lower standard of what counts as "legitimate" in this case so I may still not agree with you.

:redface2: It seems to me my standards aren't low, you're just quick to lump everyone in the "angry nerd spewing rape threats" camp.

http://youtu.be/cj29-hepBiA
http://youtu.be/cj29-hepBiA
http://youtu.be/3OLdWrVjILg
http://youtu.be/HJihi5rB_Ek
http://youtu.be/QJeX6F-Q63I
http://youtu.be/25o0EZiogw0
http://youtu.be/iUxcLxClQ08
http://youtu.be/6Y6nPjz_Od4

And that really is the tip of the iceberg.

It's hardly "red-handed" as any "evidence" the accusers have provided is circumstantial at best and frankly, I'm more inclined to trust her than Youtube LPers, who the vast majority of ARE in the "shut up and be raped" camp (not all of them mind you but it's a far greater concentration than you realize).

Once again it seems you are making assumptions. I have not seen a single personal attack by the people claiming she took the game footage, but actual evidence to support their claims. They don't want Anita to be raped or killed, they want credit for the footage they made. Did you read Viscor's blog post? :eyebrow:

 

[FlashNeko]

:redface2: It seems to me my standards aren't low, you're just quick to lump everyone in the "angry nerd spewing rape threats" camp.

http://youtu.be/cj29-hepBiA
http://youtu.be/cj29-hepBiA
http://youtu.be/3OLdWrVjILg
http://youtu.be/HJihi5rB_Ek
http://youtu.be/QJeX6F-Q63I
http://youtu.be/25o0EZiogw0
http://youtu.be/iUxcLxClQ08
http://youtu.be/6Y6nPjz_Od4

And that really is the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah, I've actually seen most of those before (and the first two are the same video posted twice and one of them is a 404) and I don't think they raise legitimate arguments. Instead they just kind of whine about "how dare she ruin our funs!"

Did you read Viscor's blog post? :eyebrow:

Yup. Like I said, all that "evidence" is circumstantial at BEST and that's me being extremely generous about it.

Hell, the video quality between a number of the "originals" and the ones used in the Tropes videos is so hilariously vast that there's absolutely no way they came from the same source...

Unless they claim she somehow digitally restored a number of them frame-by-frame on top of everything else, which would have been so much money even the boosted Kickstarter amount she made nowhere near enough.

(Also, as someone who's played Twilight Princess and enjoyed it... Zelda doesn't really fight back against Gannon in it, so that comment's wrong too.)

 

[KingOfCaramel]

Yeah, I've actually seen most of those before (and the first two are the same video posted twice and one of them is a 404) and I don't think they raise legitimate arguments. Instead they just kind of whine about "how dare she ruin our funs!"

Oops, sorry about that. I'm not going to fix it sense it seems like you wouldn't watch it anyways...

Though to say that all they do is whine about ruining their fun is hilariously wrong. :laugh:

How about the legitimate arguments where she takes scenes from games like Prey out of context? How about the argument that she uses the subject object dichotomy wrong? How about the argument that she limits the characters roles to their misfortunes rather then their characterizations? How about the argument that she is making it seem like the damsel in distress trope is being used more widely then it is? How about the argument that she has a conclusion first and only find things that support it.

These are all legitimate complaints, not "whining" as you seem to think of them.

Yup. Like I said, all that "evidence" is circumstantial at BEST and that's me being extremely generous about it.

Hell, the video quality between a number of the "originals" and the ones used in the Tropes videos is so hilariously vast that there's absolutely no way they came from the same source...

Unless they claim she somehow digitally restored a number of them frame-by-frame on top of everything else, which would have been so much money even the boosted Kickstarter amount she made nowhere near enough.

All she did was upscale the footage and blurred out things that would make it more obvious where she took the footage from. I don't know where you are getting this "hilariously vast" thing from.

 

[Fox-Chan]

Yeah, I've actually seen most of those before (and the first two are the same video posted twice and one of them is a 404) and I don't think they raise legitimate arguments. Instead they just kind of whine about "how dare she ruin our funs!"

I'm currently going through InuitInua's first video at the moment. Nowhere does she complain about Anita ruining her "fun." She mostly points out that Anita shows a lot of games that were commercial failures (and no, not the ones she recommends to people), that she asked for money when plenty of others do the same thing for free, that her understanding of the word "object" as it applies in philosophy just isn't there, and that attacking early video games for having a poor plot is a waste of everyone's time.

Inua also pointed out how Dinosaur Planet had TWO main characters, Saber and Krystal. However, when Anita brought the game up in one of her videos she neglects to mention Saber at all. I should also add that there would have been a princess to save as well, had the game come out on the N64 as originally intended.

 

[FlashNeko]

Except she didn't. In fact, she prefaces most of her points with what leads up to the most questionable moments in the game.

How about the argument that she uses the subject object dichotomy wrong?

Except she didn't.

How about the argument that she limits the characters roles to their misfortunes rather then their characterizations?

Except she didn't. For a lot of her examples, it is a cold hard fact that their misfortunes ARE their characterizations, which is the problem that is being addressed.

How about the argument that she is making it seem like the damsel in distress trope is being used more widely then it is?

Because it HAS been that widely used and is STILL widely used to this day?

How about the argument that she has a conclusion first and only find things that support it.

Or she came to that conclusion BECAUSE of the evidence she found to support. The point of an academic presentation like this is showing WHY that evidence lead to the conclusion you reached.

All she did was upscale the footage and blurred out things that would make it more obvious where she took the footage from.

That's... still a hell of a lot more work than just recording your own footage. Just sayin'.

She mostly points out that Anita shows a lot of games that were commercial failures

As well as MORE than plenty that are held up as the flagship games of their system/generation. And a lot of the ones that failed didn't fail because they made use of the Trope in question, so that doesn't give them a free pass in cataloging their addition to said Trope.

Inua also pointed out how Dinosaur Planet had TWO main characters, Saber and Krystal. However, when Anita brought the game up in one of her videos she neglects to mention Saber at all.

Because Saber is completely irrelevant to the problem and to bring him up would just be a pointless, time wasting aside. A character being created in an earlier version of the game and then left on the cutting room floor happens all the time.

The PROBLEM in this case is that you had a game that originally started with a female protagonist who had her own agency and character arc and then turned her into nothing more than a helpless kidnapping victim with no agency and no purpose other than to be something for Star Fox to rescue.

Not mentioning Saber does not change this, nor does it magically disqualify the point of how bad what happened to Krystal was.

I should also add that there would have been a princess to save as well, had the game come out on the N64 as originally intended.

A female character rescuing a captured female character carries a MUCH different sub-text than a male character doing so.

Honestly, no offense intended guys, but the way you talk makes it sound like you never actually watched the Tropes videos and only formed your opinions based on these response videos.

But... I guess you don't want to watch them and I can't force you and, honestly, this thread is starting to leave me feeling depressed that I have to keep making these arguments so I guess that's all I got to say.

 

[Fox-Chan]

Because Saber is completely irrelevant to the problem and to bring him up would just be a pointless, time wasting aside. A character being created in an earlier version of the game and then left on the cutting room floor happens all the time.

The PROBLEM in this case is that you had a game that originally started with a female protagonist who had her own agency and character arc and then turned her into nothing more than a helpless kidnapping victim with no agency and no purpose other than to be something for Star Fox to rescue.

Not mentioning Saber does not change this, nor does it magically disqualify the point of how bad what happened to Krystal was.

The larger problem and the one that affected Krystal's role in the game is that Nintendo felt that they had to change the game to fit into the Star Fox universe just so they could have a marketable launch title for the GameCube (and even then, it came out much later to a lot of backlash.) There's no sexism here, just the unfortunate side-effects of trying to make as much money as possible and Rareware's failing relationship with Nintendo post-Conker's Bad Fur Day.

And no, Saber really isn't irrelevant. She's presenting it as though Krystal is the only protagonist when in fact the game features dual protagonists. It is incredibly misleading, especially when you consider that some of her viewers would probably not even bother with looking up the rest of the available game footage. He was as much effected by Nintendo and Rareware's decision, if not moreso because he was COMPLETELY cut from the game.

A female character rescuing a captured female character carries a MUCH different sub-text than a male character doing so.

Then it wouldn't hurt to mention it. Or at least not cut out the part of dialogue where Krystal says she's there to save the princess.

Honestly, no offense intended guys, but the way you talk makes it sound like you never actually watched the Tropes videos and only formed your opinions based on these response videos.

No, I actually did watch Anita's videos. I think she has some good points about the treatment of women in video games, but she bogs it down with questionable conclusions, editing the gameplay sections so that it appears to fit or contrast with her views, and plain lazy research.

I think the treatment of women in video games has to change, but it's not going to be changed by someone like Anita Sarkeesian.

But... I guess you don't want to watch them and I can't force you and, honestly, this thread is starting to leave me feeling depressed that I have to keep making these arguments so I guess that's all I got to say.

Yeah, right back at you. :redface2:

 

[Tom Constantine]

It's hardly "red-handed" as any "evidence" the accusers have provided is circumstantial at best and frankly, I'm more inclined to trust her than Youtube LPers, who the vast majority of ARE in the "shut up and be raped" camp (not all of them mind you but it's a far greater concentration than you realize).

The proof is there, I don't know whether or not you've looked or not or just actively trying to be bias.

 

[KingOfCaramel]

Except she didn't. In fact, she prefaces most of her points with what leads up to the most questionable moments in the game.

Except she did. She cut out the part where the character is devastated by the act, making it seem like the game designers were intentionally promoting acts of violence against women.

Except she didn't.

Can you tell me why she didn't? No of course you can't. The subject object dichotomy has no dehumanizing connotations. Anita specifically made it seem that the characters being acted upon were valued at the same level as an inanimate object, which is not the case as far as the philosophy goes. It merely refers to how things react to other things (to make it simple).

Except she didn't. For a lot of her examples, it is a cold hard fact that their misfortunes ARE their characterizations, which is the problem that is being addressed.

Except that is not true, especially with Zelda (if I may still an example from one of the videos). With Sheik and Tetra, it's hard to say that the only characterization she has ever had is as a damsel.

Because it HAS been that widely used and is STILL widely used to this day?

Except, like I said, and many others before, it's not really. The games she chooses are mostly commercial failures, and they only show up in a couple of genres (action, shooters). With the number of games out there of varying genres, you can't say that the damsel story is in a majority of games.

Or she came to that conclusion BECAUSE of the evidence she found to support. The point of an academic presentation like this is showing WHY that evidence lead to the conclusion you reached.

But she made her conclusion before she started. She is a feminist, so she is going to try and find sexism wherever she can, and twist things around to make it suit her needs.

That's... still a hell of a lot more work than just recording your own footage. Just sayin'.

No, it's not. Anyone with editing software can easily learn how to do it.

A female character rescuing a captured female character carries a MUCH different sub-text than a male character doing so.

This is a fallacy, a double standard. If the damsel in distress is bad in other cases, it has to be bad here as well, unless it completely invalidates Anita's point of a woman not having her own agency. She can't just say it's ok when it's convenient to her.

Honestly, no offense intended guys, but the way you talk makes it sound like you never actually watched the Tropes videos and only formed your opinions based on these response videos.

But... I guess you don't want to watch them and I can't force you and, honestly, this thread is starting to leave me feeling depressed that I have to keep making these arguments so I guess that's all I got to say.

And no offense to you, but your arguments are weak and full of obvious bias. You do nothing to back up any of your assumptions, and just hand-wave counter arguments as whining. You ignored any evidence we provided you countless times, and honestly seem to have no idea of anything outside of what Anita tells you. Oh and trust me, I've seen those videos countless times, much to my misfortune.

I'd like to have an intelligent discussion about this, but obviously it's not coming from you. :laugh:

 

[Vitor]

She disables comments on most of her videos, thus disallowing both detractors and supporters from throwing in their two cents directly.

That was something else brought up in my discussion with Mr. Zimmerman. He believes it's done specifically so that no one can be swayed by an opinion other than her's, but that's just pure speculation at best

But yes, the harassment also factors into it, even though some of her earlier videos had comments enabled and she just blocked anyone who either didn't agree with her or didn't agree with someone in the comments

I'm also a bit insulting that nobody ever considers that some of her critics are women themselves. Then again, they'd probably just get some BS about how since they have an opinion that doesn't completely favor their brand of feminism, they're incapable of forming their own opinions because of internalized sexism.

"If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem"~Feminism rule of thumb

To me it's just kind of a relief that there are actually some sane, rational, pro-sexual equality women out there that don't believe everything this woman says

 

[lazycoconut]

I don't have much of an opinion on this since I don't play video games myself. I have very strong views on the portrayal of women in the media but still, I can't imagine trying to make a webseries about it in the context of a medium I know nothing about.

I think on one hand:

- Video gaming IS infested with misogynistic nerds who whine about "women don't BELONG in gaming" and "it's OUR space, no girls allowed" and "why don't you make your own game about shopping and cooking then lol lol" Anything that pisses off these people is good with me.

- I liked Sarkeesian's first series about negative stereotypes of women in TV and movies, although it felt rather TV Tropes-ish (I hate that site)

- Some things are objectively sexist, you don't necessarily need to know all about the video gaming industry to see the problem

- People can donate their money to whatever they want

- It's never acceptable to wish for others to be raped and murdered. No one should have to put up with dozens of abusive comments on their video.

- I do think that some people are prone to dismissing criticism of the writing of female characters. There are usually fewer of them, so fans can become defensive of them and refuse to admit there's any problem in the way they're coming across.


On the other:

- No, you shouldn't use others' footage without permission

- Nor should you act like an expert on something you're not that familiar with

- Context is important: the game itself, the franchise, the company, the audience, the story ...

- When people have donated money, one must be transparent about what you have used that money for

- Just as people shouldn't dismiss Sarkeesian's arguments ad hominem, she can't (or shouldn't) write off all her critics as reactionary neckbeards out of hand

- You can enjoy something that is sexist without enjoying the sexism itself, or approving of it/condoning it. I love '50s through '80s pulp horror, some of which is very misogynistic and, while I don't appreciate the portrayal of the idiotic blonde with massive mammaries who is only there to be raped and murdered, I accept that it's part of the genre. I imagine similar stuff happens within video games (like, I don't know, Grand Theft Auto Vice City. Of course we shouldn't murder prostitutes but all that shoot-'em-up stuff is still fun ...)