Underneath the ape makeup in this article’s cover photo is my newest interview subject, Matthew W. Mungle. Matthew is an acclaimed makeup artist who got his start helping a local movie theater in Atoka, Oklahoma promote their films by creating elaborate makeups. This would lead Matthew to a career in entertainment industry makeup that started in the 70s and is still going this day. Matthew would even win an Academy Award for Best Makeup for 1992’s Bram Stoker’s Dracula. Near the end of October, I spoke to Matthew about his long and diverse career, and I hope you all enjoy getting to know this fantastic talent.
Say hello to Matthew W. Mungle!
Johnny: Hello, Matthew. Johnny Caps of Pop Geeks here, calling for our interview.
Matthew: Hey, how are ya?
Johnny: I’m doing good. Thank you very much for taking the time out of your schedule to speak to me.
Matthew: Not a problem!
Johnny: Alright. I have my questions ready to go, starting with this: According to the IMDB, some of your earliest work in makeup effects came through promoting movies at a local theater, mentioning makeups you created to promote Return To The Planet Of The Apes. Do you recall some of the other movies you helped promote, and the effects you created for those promotions?
Matthew: Yes. Once I did that particular makeup as a chimp from one of the Planet Of The Apes movies, I started making myself up as Frankenstein, as the Hunchback…One noted particular one was I built a costume to resemble the title character from Disney’s Robin Hood. This was in Atoka, Oklahoma, and I did it so realistically that the Disney representative in Dallas, Texas called the theater owner that I worked for and said, “You must cease and desist promoting the show with that costume”.
John Thompson, who was the owner of the theater, said, “Are you kidding me? You’re serious? This is a high school student who made a realistic portrayal of Robin Hood’s fox costume, and you’re telling me I can’t use it to promote the show?”. He just jumped down his throat and said, “Go ahead and sue me”. I was very proud that he stood up for me as far as that was concerned. I just continued making costumes and enjoyed doing makeup as I was in high school.
Johnny: Fantastic to hear. How did the theater work you did in college prepare you for your work in film and television?
Matthew: Oh, that’s a great question because we did a play called Winnie The Pooh and The Blustery Day, I think it was. I was in charge of doing all the prosthetics for everyone. We did a run-through with all the prosthetics, and the director came back and said, “You know, your voices are very muffled, and I can’t hear you through the prosthetics. I think we’re going to do away with the prosthetics, and just do it with paint and powder”. I said, “Okay, let me go and redesign that”.
One of my student colleagues came up to me later and said, “Aren’t you devastated?”. I said, “No, because if I’m going to work in Hollywood, and work in theater and film and television, I have to be prepared for this because there are ups and downs. I must be prepared for this”. She said, “Good point”. I think, in the beginning, I was really concerned and thinking about that.
Johnny: Alright. Well, you’ve definitely managed to do some great work…
Matthew: Thank you!
Johnny: ..And that does lead me to my next question: One of your earliest screen projects was the infamous Tippi Hedren film Roar. Was it as nerve-wracking to work on in your department as it was for other crew members in theirs’?
Matthew: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. They didn’t really have safety meetings back then. They just told us, “Stay away from the cats and you’ll be fine”. One day we were shooting on the set, and they had this male lion, beautiful mane, beautiful lion, downstairs. I was upstairs sitting on my makeup box, waiting for the shot to be filmed. All at once, this male lion got away from its’ trainer, ran up the ramp, sat down in front of me, looked me straight in the eye, and put his paw on my leg like a dog.
I very slowly picked that paw up, put it on the ground, turned around and went back into the room that was right next to me. By that time, the trainer got up there. He started whipping him and pulling him down. He got him in check and took him downstairs, then he ran back up to me and said, “You NEVER turn your back on a lion”. I said, “Well, you never told me that” (laughing). He was like, “He could’ve mauled you”, and I said, “Okay”. At that turning point, I thought, “Mmm, I’d better stop this project” (laughing).
Johnny: Wow, that’s definitely a nerve-wracker.
Matthew: Quite scary (laughing), needless to say.
Johnny: Another early project of yours’ was 1985’s Silver Bullet. As I often ask talents who work on novels adapted from books, had you read the book before siging on for the movie, and if so, how did it influence your work on the film?
Matthew: I hadn’t read the book. I was working for Mike McCracken Sr. and his son, Mike McCracken Jr., on that project. They were really in charge of that project, and I was doing a lot of lab work for them, making teeth, running foam, making molds, whatever I had to do. They were in charge, like I was in my later years with projects that would come in for me, but I took my work cues from them.
It was a great working relationship with Mike McCracken Sr. because he’s so frickin’ talented…Especially sculpting and artwork. I was in awe of him and his son. Mike Sr. passed away, but Mike Jr. is still around, and he just came out to Texas to help me with a couple of projects, so you meet these people throughout your career, and if you hit it off, you can continue that association.
Johnny: That’s great to hear. It’s good to develop friendships like that.
Johnny: To go to my next question: One of my favorite credits of yours’ was 1987’s A Nightmare On Elm Street 3: Dream Warriors. What effects are you most proud of having created for that movie?
Matthew: Well, with all those Nightmare projects, they would have so many effects in the film that they would hire all of these effects people and labs to do all these certain things in the films. I think they ran out of people to call, I guess (laughing). I only had two or three things to do in that movie. One of them was impaling John Saxon on the back of the Cadillac fin, and also a dead cat, and there was something else I can’t remember. That’s about the association I had with that film, but just to have my name on that film was really fun.
Johnny: It was definitely a blast. Jennifer Rubin is a good friend of mine. I talk to her every so often. She did great work in that movie, but this interview isn’t about me. It’s about you, and to go to my next question: Many of your early credits were in the horror and sci-fi genres, but your work took a turn for the comedic in 1988 with Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. As a makeup artist, is a comedy film as hard to work on as a sci-fi or horror film?
Matthew: I think a comedy film is more difficult because what they require from you is more realistic effects, and they have to look extremely realistic. Otherwise, they’ve lost the audience. With monster and slasher films and things like that, you can get away with just about anything, but as far as realism, comedies are sometimes a little bit harder to work on than those horror films. Dirty Rotten Scoundrels was great to work on because I was working with Frank Oz as director, and that opened up six more projects working with him. I worked with the producer who hired me on that job, so it was really fun trying to figure out how to do that effect on Steve Martin for the movie.
Johnny: Fantastic, and again, you did great work on it.
Matthew: Thank you.
Johnny: Oh, no problem. Going into the 90s, you worked on the makeup for the 1991 film Bugsy. How challenging was it to work on a movie based on real people as opposed to fictional characters?
Matthew: You know, it’s always difficult because you’re playing a tug-of-war there. Number one, you’ve got pictures of a real person that lived, which the actor is trying to portray. Number two, you’ve got an actor that the film company has paid a lot for the film, so they don’t want to lose that actor under a lot of makeup. You have a tug of war there where you just have to use the essence of the real character placed onto the actor. That’s always a tug of war as far as your creativity on a film like that.
Johnny: Alright. To return to the realm of the fantastic, you helped create the makeup for 1992’s Bram Stoker’s Dracula. What went into the creative process for your work on that movie?
Matthew: I was hired on by Greg Cannom through John Logan, who was Greg’s shop supervisor. John Logan and I had worked at the Burman Studios a few years earlier. We had a great working relationship, and he recommended to Greg that Greg hire me to do all the on-set applications. Greg hired me, and most everything had been started in preparation when I came onto the film. Of course, I did all the application every day on Gary Oldman, and whatever else I had to do on the film as far as makeup effects were concerned.
I also took advantage of making the vampire teeth for all of the actors on the film. Greg didn’t want to have anything to do with it, so he put me in charge of doing that. It was a great working relationship with Greg and I. However, he would come in the morning to help apply the makeup, and then leave immediately once the makeup was done, and not even go on the set. I would have to watch the actors myself alongside Stuart Artingstall, who did Gary’s hair, every day that he did work, and some days Greg wouldn’t show up, and I’d have to do the makeups that day, which was fine with me because I could handle it.
It was one of those times where you do the makeup so many times that there was one day where I did the old age makeup, and I turned around with the makeup done, and I couldn’t even remember what I did because it was like muscle memory doing it over and over again. It was just a great production to work on. It really was.
Johnny: Bram Stoker’s Dracula would, of course, win you the Oscar for Best Makeup. Were you nervous on Oscar night, and if so, how did you react when your name was announced as a winner?
Matthew: You know, I wasn’t nervous at all. I never got into doing makeup saying, “I’m going to win all these awards. I’m going to win an Academy Award. Etc.”. I got into makeup because I love makeup effects and doing prosthetics. There was so much work leading up to the awards, at the bake-off, you have to present you work, then everybody calls you once you get the nomination, etc., that night was…It’s like a crapshoot whether you win or lose, really.
Once they said our names, it’s like I was floating on air. Walking up onstage, it was a dream, really. Once we accepted the awards, it was just perfect, but later, I found out, immediately after we accepted our awards, that the Associated Press called my dad, Jene, in Atoka, Oklahoma to get a comment from him, which they asked him, “Do you have any comments about your son winning the Academy Award for Bram Stoker’s Dracula?”. He said, “Yes. I have three sons. Matthew’s the youngest, but tonight, he’s numberone”. That’s always stuck with me. My dad passed away the same year I won, and it was just great to have my parents support.
Johnny: My condolences on the loss of your father, but how lovely to have gotten those words. On another serious note, one of your most serious projects was helping create makeup for the 1993 movie Schindler’s List. One of the most powerful and moving films of the 90s, did you think when working on it that it would have the impact that it did?
Matthew: I didn’t know it would have the impact it did until I actually saw it in the theaters because when I go into a project, I’m focused on what I’m supposed to do, and how to make it the best it can look. When we were in Krakow, Poland filming, we went to Auschwitz and shot there, and it weighed heavy on me being there, but at the same time, I was so focused on putting those bald caps on, and supervising that with Christina Smith, that it was more about the makeups, making them and the actors look good, than it was about the whole story. Once I actually saw it in the movie theater put together, it was very daunting to me to know I had worked on a film as powerful as Schindler’s List.
Johnny: Well, it was definitely a powerful movie. On a lighter note, but still relating to Schindler’s List, I know that sometimes Steven Spielberg, to lighten the mood on the set, would call up Robin Williams and get him to perform comedy for the staff of the movie. Were you privy to any of those calls?
Matthew: Well, actually, I did work on Hook for a while before Bram Stoker’s Dracula. I was just day-checking on it, but it was not that Spielberg actually asked Robin to do something. Robin just breaks out into whatever he wants to do any time he sees a lull in shooting, and it just cracks the whole crew up. It could go on for thirty minutes, for example.
Robin did that, but I worked years before with Jonathan Winters on a commercial, and Jonathan would do that also. If there was a lull in shooting, he took 45 minutes to do a Western movie, doing all the characters. Everybody just sits back and watches this amazing Jonathan Winters doing exactly what Robin Williams did. Jonathan was a big mentor to Robin, and it was in the same vein what they would do. It was amazing to watch these comedians do what they do.
Johnny: Indeed. Staying with comedy, but in a more pitch-black manner, you created makeup effects for the 1994 Oliver Stone movie Natural Born Killers. A film that defines the concept of sensory overload, what were, respectively, the easiest and hardest parts of working on that movie?
Matthew: (Laughing) There were no easy parts of that movie. They were all hard. It was a very difficult movie to work on. The year before, I worked with Oliver on Heaven And Earth, and they immediately hired me to do Natural Born Killers.
At first I didn’t want to do the movie because it was so intensely bloody in its’ subject matter, but my partner John Jackson, who worked with me on the film, said, “You have to look at it like a statement of what serial killers are, and what the public and the news media does to serial killers or mass murderers, how they put them on pedestals sometimes and how they cover them”. That movie alone gave me nightmares for at least three months afterwards. It was so intense working on that film that I don’t think I could ever work on a film like that again.
Johnny: That’s understandable. In 1995, you worked on the movie Congo. A return to the B-movies you came of age with and started out working on, and I make that comparison with affection because I like B-movies, what stood out the most to you about working on that movie?
Matthew: Well, working on the same set as Stan Winston was great because I’d always admired Stan Winston, and previously he had referred me to do Junior with Arnold Schwarzenegger. We had a kind of mutual respect for each other, and Christina Smith was the make-up department head. She hired me to do all the prosthetics for the film because Stan didn’t want anything do with the prosthetic make-ups or bodies. He just wanted to do the monkeys. It was interesting working on that film because it was all on the Sony lot. There were a few exteriors here and there, and of course, we went down to Costa Rica to shoot, but it was a really fun movie to work on. It really was.
You say the B-movies, and yes, I loved working on B-movies, especially in the beginning of my career because there weren’t any visual effects. If there were, they were rotoscoped and very expensive, and they wouldn’t even play with our makeup. Nowadays, it’s just common knowledge that they play with your makeup in the digital world after you’re done, so you really had to do great work, and if it goes on film bad, you’re going to look bad. You really had to work at doing really great work, so I strived doing that, and carried it over into Congo with all the crushed heads and other things we had to do for that film.
Johnny: Alright. I know I keep on saying this, but it’s true: You did great work on it.
Matthew: Thank you.
Johnny: Oh, no problem. To go to my next question, one of the most inventive movies you worked on in the 90s was 1998’s Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas. As I asked Tane McClure when I interviewed her a few years ago, as I’m sure you came of age with Monty Python’s Flying Circus, what was it like to be working alongside Terry Gilliam?
Matthew: Oh, it was great. I met him a couple of times on the set because I worked on designing Johnny Depp’s makeup with his makeup artist. The first time he came to my studio to meet Johnny and talk about the character, this little guy inside of me went, “AAAH! Oh, no, it’s Terry Gilliam!”, because I loved Monty Python. To talk to him and actually be one-on-one with him, because it was just myself and him in the studio, was just amazing. Such an inventive mind he has, that director.
Johnny: I’m glad you had such a good experience working on it. That movie had quite a unique visual style, and you played a great part in helping that style come out. To go to my next question, jumping onto television, you created many makeups for The X-Files. What effects are you most proud of having created for that show?
Matthew: Oh, there were so many, but I think the ones that stand out are the salamander creature and, probably, the skinned people that we had to do for that television series. That show was so amazing to work on. I couldn’t wait to get the next script because I knew Chris Carter & the writers would’ve written something just way out of the ordinary for the film. It was just great working with him.
That show was so much fun because it was really the first television show that I worked on that was a series. Up until then, I’d worked on movies of the week and things like that. There were so many effects we did in that film, whether it was the salamander creature, the skinned people, or the acid-eating effects we had to do on people. It was just amazing. I think the whole television series stands out to me.
Johnny: Fantastic! Staying with TV, you also created makeup effects for quite a few episodes of both CSI and CSI: Miami. Considering the content of that show, and your own squeamishness about blood, was it difficult to work on those shows, or were you able to power through it well?
Matthew: No, it wasn’t difficult at all to work on those shows because it wasn’t real blood? Yes, I will faint, but I’ve gotten better about it in my older age, I must say. Working on effects like that, and throwing blood on things, just comes natural because I believe it’s more like a craft to me. It’s more like a profession than thinking about the real thing. Sometimes if we do the real thing for television or film, it doesn’t look realistic, so you have to push the boundaries of what would’ve happened to a person in those instances.
Working on 14-plus seasons of CSI was such a great experience. Number one, to be asked back every season is a kudos as a makeup artist. It means that you’re doing a great job. Number two, it was like a family there. We all knew each other. When we’d have production meetings, it was just like, “I’m going to take care of this”. “You can help me with this”. “How are we going to do this?”. “Well, we can do it this way or do it this way”. I’ve always based my career on, “Nothing is impossible, it’s just how you approach it”, as an effect is concerned. It was a delight to work on CSI, and besides working on CSI, we were also working on other medical shows. We started on NCIS about the same time.
Johnny: It’s always wonderful when producers have that kind of faith in your creativity that they keep bringing you back, so kudos to you for that. Staying with television for another question, you worked with Tracey Ullman on her special Tracey Ullman In The Trailer Tales. Knowing her great creativity, what are your favorite memories of interacting with her on that program?
Matthew: Oh my gosh, there’s so many. I first worked with her on that show, and then they asked me back to do three seasons of State Of The Union. Every time we would do a new character on her, she would take that character on immediately when I started doing her makeup.
She’d start picking on myself or the makeup, myself as the prosthetic makeup artist or her regular makeup and hairstylist. She’d pick us out and start using her characters on us. There are times that I’d have to say, “Tracey, you’ve got to stop. I’m laughing so much my hand is shaking and I can’t do this makeup the rest of the way”, but she is an amazing comedienne and actor to work with. If I had the chance to work with her again, I’d jump on it absolutely.
Johnny: That’s fantastic to hear. She’s definitely a great talent. Jumping back to the big screen, you were a prosthetic makeup artist on 2004’s The Polar Express. How difficult was it to integrate prosthetic makeup with motion capture?
Matthew: That’s an interesting project in that Dan Striepeke was the department head on that show, and he hired my lab and myself. At that point, they were doing makeups, scanning them, and then using those to digitize them to make the film. They don’t do that too much anymore. Sometimes they do if it’s a character in a realistic kind of a setting.
We would have to go through and do all of these makeups by hand, and they’d, of course, scan them, and then they’d have them act a little bit in front of the green screen, but it was an interesting process in looking at it and going, “Hmm, we’re doing makeups, but they’re digitizing them, so is this the end of makeup effects?”. By the end, Danny and I would talk about it and say, “No. It’s kind of helping us working with the production in a creative method of creating what you actually do”.
Johnny: That’s an interesting way of looking at it, a philosophical way. Staying with The Polar Express for a question, we recently lost Peter Scolari, who worked on that movie. Did you have any interaction with him on that set?
Matthew: I didn’t with him, but Michael Jeter I did. He played Steamer, and we did the makeup on him. I think we only did it one day, and he was supposed to come back the next day. We did the makeup, everything was great, we took it off and everybody went home, and then we came in the next morning and Michael wasn’t anywhere to be found. An A.D came into us later and said, “Michael’s passed away”. That was the actual night he had passed away in his sleep, and of course, we didn’t get to do the makeup again, obviously. Luckily they had enough in camera that they could use with him, but it was quite a devastating blow to all of us that he had passed away.
Johnny: I’m so sorry to hear that. Well, at least we have movies like The Polar Express to remember these great talents by. On a lighter note, you created special makeup effects for the 2008 movie Untraceable, a movie I find to be a very underrated thriller with a unique concept. What are your favorite memories of working on that film?
Matthew: Well, I thought, as you said, it was a really interesting concept because with the internet and using social media, it really hit home how a killer could use that. Nowadays, you can trace somebody digitally, but in the early days of the internet and stuff like that, it was very interesting. It’s one of those productions that the producers and writers would try to come up with ways of killing people, you know? It was quite morbid, but at the same time, it was an interesting working relationship with the director, Greg Hoblit, who I had worked with on Primal Fear and several other projects. I really enjoyed working on that. Even though it was some blood and gore and things like that, it was still creative makeup that we had to do.
Johnny: That movie was excellent. I wish it had done better at the box office…
Matthew: Yes. I do, too.
Johnny: …Because it was really a great thriller. Moving into the 2010s, you worked in the makeup lab on the movie Inception. An amazing visual feast for the eyes, what made that project so special for you to work on?
Matthew: It was interesting. We were hired by the prop people to make the bodies of all the main characters so they could tie them together, and they could float them, and stuff like that because they weren’t going to use the real actors, of course, as they would be too heavy and cumbersome, needless to say uncomfortable for the Actors. Again, we had to be extremely realistic with what we were doing.
I never went on the set. We just made the bodies and charged the production. They went out, I ended up seeing the movie, and it looked great. Again, it’s where you really put your artistic ability to work, making things realistic, and making the audience believe that those are actually the characters.
Johnny: Alright. Again, great work, because I saw that movie in theaters, and it was definitely amazing. I mean, really, looking at your filmography, just the depth and the breadth of it…It’s absolutely stunning, the effects you helped create in the memories of film and television viewers alike. It’s excellent stuff.
Matthew: Thank you.
Johnny: In 2013, you worked on the Funny Or Die short Alice In Chains: AIC 23. Are you an Alice In Chains fan, and if so, were you surprised that they had a sense of humor, considering how dour and depressing grunge music is?
Matthew: I was never an Alice In Chains fan, but I had worked before with the director who was directing the video. He came to me and said, “I have these guys, Alice In Chains, and we need to put them into character”, and I said, “Great!” because that’s what I love to do, taking a face and turning it into a different character. It was really fun to work on that. One of the members’ fathers lived about five miles from where I grew up in Atoka, Oklahoma, and so we had a lot to talk about as far as that was concerned. It was fun creating characters on those band members.
Johnny: Alright. It was interesting to see them work with Funny Or Die because, like I said, I noticed grunge music tends to be very depressing. I was never really into it.
Matthew: No, I wasn’t, either.
Johnny: To go to a different project, you worked on the prosthetic makeup for the 2014 drama Reach Me. Did the movie’s financial troubles impact your work on it, or were you able to manage it well?
Matthew: It didn’t affect what we were doing at all. John Hertzfeldt is really a fun director to work with. He may be brash with other people, but if he knows that you know what you’re doing, just like Oliver Stone does, then you will have no problem working with him. I found it fascinating working with him on that project. I know they had a lot of financial woes on that movie, but it didn’t really affect what we were doing because our effects on it were pretty minimal, as far as I remember.
Johnny: Alright. To go to my next question, from 1998 to 2016, you worked on several movies that were produced by Harvey Weinstein. Even before he was outed as a vicious sexual predator, he had a reputation for venomous anger and treating people like garbage. When working on these assorted movies for Miramax and The Weinstein Company, did you ever have the misfortune of crossing Harvey’s path, or did you manage to dodge that bullet?
Matthew: I completely dodged that bullet, and it was a good thing, too, because I cannot stand negativity in this business. It’s so hard to work in this business anyway, and to have that negativity and loathing breathing down your neck is very, very difficult, so luckily, I didn’t have any dealings with Harvey.
Johnny: Well, that’s good to hear (Matthew laughs). I mean, as I’ve mentioned to several other talents who have worked for Miramax and/or The Weinstein Company, even before the #MeToo bombshells that dropped in 2017, Harvey disgusted me. I still recall reading about how he harassed Sydney Pollack and Anthony Minghella on their death beds over The Reader, and that just disgusted me.
Matthew: He was just a vicious man, and there’s no reason to be that way. I never understood it.
Johnny: Well, to go to a different question, and this is more of a broader topic, how has COVID impacted the way you do your work?
Matthew: Well, luckily, I retired in early 2016 and moved to Lago Vista, Texas to take a few years off before I was starting to work again. I tell you, to think about even going on the set now makes me nervous. I make prosthetics and I send them to the set for other people to apply them, but to even go on a set now makes me very nervous and gives me nightmares (laughing). I don’t even want to go there in my later years now. As they say, been there, done that, you know?
Johnny: I understand. I interviewed Valli O’Reilly last year and asked her how COVID impacted her work. She told me of how the process of applying makeups became even more expansive than it already did, about having to put effects in separate bags. I can only imagine how harrowing it must be, but still, we’re powering on and doing good work. Now I come to my final question: What’s next for you?
Matthew: Well, I just designed another makeup for Glenn Close. This was the fourth makeup I did with Glenn. The first one was Albert Nobbs, of course. The second was Hillbilly Elegy, which I got an Oscar nomination for. This next make-up is for a film called Brothers. It’s a project she wanted me to collaborate with her on.
She is such a talented actress, and such a nice person that I always take her calls, always talk to her. We text back and forth from time to time about what’s going on, and “If I can help you with any makeup, I’m here for you”. Even with the makeup I just designed, she called up and said, “I want to do something special with my nose”, and without even skipping a beat, I said, “Let me fly up on my dime to Montana, where you live, and we’ll play for a couple of days with the prosthetics. I’ll get something ready, some dentures, and we’ll see what we can come up with”. It’s so nice when you have a great working relationship and a wonderful collaborative effort with an actress of her caliber who doesn’t mind wearing prosthetics.
Johnny: Oh, I can relate to that definitely. With the interviews I’ve done, I’ve made friends with quite a few people in the entertainment industry, and they’ve become people I regularly exchange texts with her, and some of them have become trusted advisors of mine on various matters. It’s always great to develop a bond like that.
Johnny: That does it for my questions. I again thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to speak to me.
Matthew: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate talking to you.
Johnny: Likewise, Mr. Mungle. I hope you have a great afternoon.
Matthew: I certainly will. Take care of yourself.
Johnny: No problem. Bye.
Matthew: Bye bye.
I would again like to thank Matthew W. Mungle for taking the time out of his schedule to speak to me. For more about Matthew’s work, past, present and future, you can check out his official website.
Coming soon to the Flashback Interview is a second conversation with actress/singer/dancer/Body Double To The Stars Shelley Michelle, as well as my first interview with acclaimed dancer/actress/choreographer Sandahl Bergman. Thank you as always for reading.