What exactly is wrong with TV-Nihon subs?

[Lynxara]

I really hope that, with the rise of other groups and fanscrubbers and with Over-Time doing their best to sub current shows, the days of TV-N's popularity are numbered.

Well, yes and no. Looking at things realistically, TVN will always have a fanbase as long as they're publishing things. The sorts of people who become tokusatsu fans tend to be people who hate change (as most people do), and a lot of people are already used to TVN's style. These people simply will not change until TVN stops issuing subs, because they'd rather not get used to a different group's style.

That said, other translation communities generally moved on from the style TVN uses years ago. And changing technology is also against TVN, in terms of how their encoding standards stack up to what most people are using. It seems to me that new fans filtering into the community now are more likely than ever before to simply reject TVN's style as too distracting. So I think TVN's influence in the community is slowly diminishing as time passes, but I don't think TVN is ever really going to go away.

And, honestly, the community is probably better off if TVN doesn't go away. If people like what TVN does, and TVN being around keeps them watching and discussing the shows... I mean, that's completely a net positive for the rest of us. It's just better to have two groups doing the weeklies in two really different styles than just one group that everybody has to watch whether they like it or not.

If anyone cares to give other examples, please do so. I love making a game out of stuff like this.

I remember an anecdote from helping MegaAnon out with a Megaranger line last year. The line was translated such that it was a pun on "shitsuren" (broken-hearted) and "ranger," and he was trying to figure out how to rewrite it so that it sounded more like a joke. After a couple of weeks, he started sending the line around to various translators to see if they could give him some more information to work with.

Well, it turned out the line wasn't a pun at all. In all probability, TVN's translator had simply misheard the line and assumed a joke was there (because Megaranger is, to be fair, a pretty jokey series). The character was actually just saying something along the lines of, "I'm not broken-hearted at all!" if memory serves. Changing the line completely changed the feeling of the scene.

The thing is: just about any amateur translating group is going to put out stuff that contains these sorts of errors. I could probably go through a random OT release now and find some error, or GUIS or whoever else you cared to name. The issue with TVN is not that they screw up sometimes. Everybody screws up sometimes, and any fan who consumes a lot of translated material should know to keep this in mind.

Did anyone bother telling TVN about the said mistakes in the first place?

TVN does have a thread on their forums for reporting errors, so they do acknowledge that mistakes happen. Most of the famous ones have been reported already. The issue is that since TVN does hardsubs, they can't update subs to correct for errors as easily as a group using softsubs can. While a softsubber can just change the text and remux, the hardsubber has to run a completely new encode.

So even after an error in a TVN sub is known, it's going to remain circulating for literally years. Because to fix the error, you'd have to redo the episode, so you might as well redo the whole script, and at that point, you might as well wait until you've got DVDs or something and redo the whole release. GUIS and OT, on the other hand, have been able to issue rapid v2s when something really screwed up ended up in a sub, and fans who don't like particulars of their style can simply edit the subs themselves.

For instance, I've been editing my copy of GUIS's Jetman subs so the dialogue is written in a more comic booky style, since that's how I always imagined it myself. The original release is just fine, and I'm keeping copies of it, but it's fun to make my "personal" scripts that cater to my own tastes and whims. And for Kakuranger, I've been issuing written notes stating how things were translated, so people who want to make changes to their own copies of the subs can do so.

It would be totally impossible to do stuff like this with hardsubbed files, which is why I've grown to really dislike them. I honestly think that if TVN moved to softsubs, a lot of the objections to the group's work would disappear, and pretty much overnight. Anybody with a problem, or who found an error, could just change it easily in their own copy of the script.

 

[SamuraiEchidna]

Thank you again, Lynxara! Though it came off as if you were correcting me, in reality you were expanding on what I was originally trying to say.

I've given TV-Nihon the benefit of the doubt many times in this thread, despite the fact that I no longer have any love for that group. But I do know their place and I do know that they have subbed more things than any other group out there. And while I do have many worries about the quality of their translations and releases, in fact others have WAY more worries/questions/disagreements/etc. than I do, all of it would indeed disappear over night if they tried to give us softsub releases (at least as a companion to their hardsubs).

I am not at all trying to put Over-Time or anyone else on pedestal and claim they are the infallible translators. But for any mistakes they have, any translating whims we may have, any notes about their translation choices they may want to share with us, ALL of it is easily changed or edited. They could change it, or we could edit the subs ourselves. It's that easy!

 

[Glamador]

The sorts of people who become tokusatsu fans tend to be people who hate change (as most people do)

Simply put, such sweeping generalizations, especially about a specific sub-group, are meaningless and by their very nature made from a position of ignorance.

That's not saying it's wrong mind you. Just so impractical to prove that it's hardly worth even questioning its truthfulness.

"I've been around a long time and have seen a lot of people like this" is no evidence at all. But hey, another ethos vs. logos thing, I've already said that's a personal peeve.

And changing technology is also against TVN, in terms of how their encoding standards stack up to what most people are using. It seems to me that new fans filtering into the community now are more likely than ever before to simply reject TVN's style as too distracting.

Video quality is probably the greatest deciding factor in popularity for any sub-group that uses hard subs. If anything is going to kill TVN it's going to be other sub groups releasing with noticeably better video quality. As shallow as it is, I know that I've chosen which anime torrent to get based on video quality first and sub-group later, on occasion.

If people like what TVN does, and TVN being around keeps them watching and discussing the shows... I mean, that's completely a net positive for the rest of us.

Damn well said.

The issue with TVN is not that they screw up sometimes. Everybody screws up sometimes, and any fan who consumes a lot of translated material should know to keep this in mind.

And I did not mean to insinuate that a few errors made any group a bad group either. I had hoped that the act of searching for them and noticing how few there are (or how many, in comparison to other groups) would put it into perspective how superficial the rest of the complaints about TVN's style are.

Or I could have been shown a veritable deluge of mistakes and been forced to conclude that TVN is ****. Coulda gone either way.

For instance, I've been editing my copy of GUIS's Jetman subs so the dialogue is written in a more comic booky style, since that's how I always imagined it myself. The original release is just fine, and I'm keeping copies of it, but it's fun to make my "personal" scripts that cater to my own tastes and whims. And for Kakuranger, I've been issuing written notes stating how things were translated, so people who want to make changes to their own copies of the subs can do so.

It really is a tremendous point in soft-subs' favour that they make this possible. From a completely personal standpoint though, it's a feature I would never use. I love the sound of having my own personally styled translation, but as the kind of viewer I am it would just never happen. You see...I watch things once. Maaaaybe twice. Hardy EVER 3 times, not by direct choice anyway. The reason I even keep the files after I'm done with them are for 3 simple reasons:

1) To show them to friends

2) To check something specific or grab a screencap

3) Because I am an obsessive file hoarder

I just never rewatch things. So my choice of what to download is completely based on the subbers' original file *OR* any viewer-reworked versions like Lynx's personal Jetman subs that are made readily available.



Also, from the Kakuranger 1-7 blog post:
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As for the names of gadgets and robots... that is, the toy-related names. There's much debate in the Sentai fan community about whether or not the names of toy items, particularly robots and gadgets, should be translated in subtitles. Generally, toy collectors prefer that toy items have their names transliterated, so they don't have to memorize two sets of names for everything. More story-oriented fans want translations of the toy items names to appear in the subtitles, so they can understand how the names were supposed to "feel" to its original audience. Both camps hold very valid viewpoints, and it's literally impossible to please them both. Ultimately, what we do as release staff will just be a matter of what feels right for the show.

[/hide]
Am I crazy or did people jump down my throat when I suggested having translated names is a hassle for toy collectors? I think KingRanger did for sure. Yet here Lynxara is claiming that such arguments "hold very valid viewpoints"?

 

[KingRanger]

Am I crazy or did people jump down my throat when I suggested having translated names is a hassle for toy collectors? I think KingRanger did for sure. Yet here Lynxara is claiming that such arguments "hold very valid viewpoints"?

If a sub group doesn't translate names of things simply to please toy collectors... I will not watch that groups releases. That is asinine in every single way.

 

[KingWilly]

I think TV-N remains so popular because their subs are the most widespread, mostly because every streaming video place uses their subs exclusively. Why? Because they release their subs in video formats that most people can use and client software can recognize; instead of obscure and emerging formats like .mkv.

Most people aren't going to direct download a video, they are going to watch it online; and they will be stuck with TV-Nihon, whether they like it or not.

 

[KingRanger]

I think TV-N remains so popular because their subs are the most widespread, mostly because every streaming video place uses their subs exclusively. Why? Because they release their subs in video formats that most people can use and client software can recognize; instead of obscure and emerging formats like .mkv.

Most people aren't going to direct download a video, they are going to watch it online; and they will be stuck with TV-Nihon, whether they like it or not.

If you think MKV is "obscure and emerging" then you are living in like 2009.... If anything AVI is obscure now.

It has nothing to do with streaming video. It is because a lot of people either refuse or THINK they can not do anything but AVI OR they prefer the weaboo sub style.

 

[Hell Kaiser Andy]

It's not like Over-Time also release their subs in .mp4 which tons of things can play.

 

[KingWilly]

If you think MKV is "obscure and emerging" then you are living in like 2009.... If anything AVI is obscure now.

It has nothing to do with streaming video. It is because a lot of people either refuse or THINK they can not do anything but AVI OR they prefer the weaboo sub style.

For as long as you have to download extra software and drivers to play the video file, it's going to be a backwards choice for a video format.

It's not like Over-Time also release their subs in .mp4 which tons of things can play.

Yeah, in a low-res SD version, in which anyone watching it over streaming services would complain why they are showing this instead of the HD TV-N versions.

 

[KingRanger]

For as long as you have to download extra software and drivers to play the video file, it's going to be a backwards choice for a video format.



Yeah, in a low-res SD version, in which anyone watching it over streaming services would complain why they are showing this instead of the HD TV-N versions.

I'm sorry but you clearly don't know much about new formats and such. I suggest you use google or something else and really learn about what mkv and other formats are before you call them backwards or obscure. You do not have to download extra software. MKV is easy to playback.

The SD Mp4 of OT's is of better video quality than the HD of T-N. And honestly.. People that watch anything streamed like that don't care about what group did what.

 

[Glamador]

There....there are streaming sites hosting these videos? Certainly not Youtube where half the subs are in some arabic language....

I had a hell of a time even finding KR when I first went searching for it a few years ago. 'Twas the main reason I never got into it before. There were very few torrents on 3rd party sites. As soon as I was linked to TVN's site at last I grabbed every torrent in sight.

Of course nowadays when I search the same sites I did before I come up with TVN and Overtime filling the whole list. The scope and popularity and availability of things on the internet change with time. And I don't think that the majority of people that watch fansubbed works do it via streaming sites. I certainly always go to torrents first and foremost, but I've been watching anime in a variety of formats for the better part of a decade so...maybe I'm not the majority.