power aquirering in kamen rider

[Xtreme RX]

I like how Double does things. They do not ignore any specific gadget even after it's debut.

 

[MattComix]

I like how Double does things. They do not ignore any specific gadget even after it's debut.

I like the way W has handled it to. Very clear function for each and most of them do not ****-up his design and the one that does is actually not half bad.

 

[musashi03]

Why would that be a plot hole? It works within the universe and it's explained.

When you look at it, there are tons, people just generally don't want to ask about it since it will be pointless. Same goes for Kabuto's Perfect Zecter, it works within the universe which dwells on time paradoxes. A world where somebody or something goes back in time or goes into the future. Heck, it has henshin devices that are sentient and can think and appears out of nowhere. Look at it this way, the Perfect Zecter is perfect enough not to warrant an explanation because people couldn't understand the complexities of it anyway. Like I said, imagine bringing an iPad back in the past, people wouldn't even understand it and people wouldn't know why we even brought it there just for the sake of this conversation. It is an unrevealed mystery for a reason, because it is open to our interpretation.

What theories are these...? I don't really think Shouji Yonemura thought too deeply into all of these things when writing those episodes and trying figure out what the hell to do with the weapon. It's just as cheap to excuse the failings in Kabuto for those reasons as it is for some people to excuse the failings in Shinkenger because apparently one "needs" an understanding of Japanese culture to understand the story. A narrative should be able to carry itself on its own weight without any outside forces.

A lot, like if you meet with your past self, will that disrupt space-time? If you bring an object from the future in the past, will that disrupt space-time? If you changed history, will that change the future? Or just make a parallel universe where the new events based on what you changed are taking place? If you kill somebody in the past, will that person disappear in the future? There are so many theories with Space-Time Continuum out there that the writer probably decided to just stay in the safe side wherein he didn't go to one path only.

One thing you forget is the intended target audience for these shows. Kabuto is meant to be watched by children and moms who doesn't need those explanations you seek. Again, with the topic of Space-Time Continuum, it is acceptable to have no definite answer especially with dealing with something coming from the future. In Shinkenger's case, the intended target audience were the Japanese, we just get episodes on the internet or through DVDs. Same as Den-O, people were complaining about his motif, because they didn't understand the fact that it was because of Ryoutaro's mind that the 4 Imagins turned out that way, being based on Japanese folk-tales.

...then don't write about it? This isn't reality, this is a narrative where one (or two but Inoue's episodes don't matter) has total control over what's going on. He should know where simple things like powers and weapons come from. To say he doesn't because we don't know yet is asinine. Heck, Micheal Scott is an authority of human mythology and though a lot of it has no real standing, he rights within the confines of what he knows and creates laws and rules for how he thinks things should work within the worlds he writes. Yonemura doesn't even do that!

Again, it comes from the future or some dimensional rift which is impossible to explain. That's enough to know, no need to sniff it even more.

How am I acting in this way...? At the time, people used the information they had and were open to new ideas, and at least had some idea of what they were working with. Kabuto as a series makes no attempt to even tell you what the hell space-time is within the confines of its narrative, it doesn't even begin to tell you its basic rules. Kabuto's actually worse than technobabble because they at least attempt to feign some competency there, Kabuto makes no attempt to even work within its series and just does whatever the hell it wants to because Yonemura was a half-assed writer at the time and still ain't much better.

This is generally the same state as those people, we don't really know what the future holds for us, and since Kabuto's theme dwells on that, it is acceptable to not have any explanation on those.

I like a good mystery, I like a good open ending, and I like those times where things are left up to your imagination (Kageyama and Yaguruma's "death", for example), but that's just lazy to excuse faults in narratives for imagination's sake.

Again, it is a mystery when you look at it as something being based on time paradoxes. Did it come from the future? Did it come from a parallel universe? Did it come from a different dimension? Just look at God Speed Love, Tendou changed the past which led to a different alternate universe, which might also explain the Hyper Kabuto showing up in the series even though Tendou hasn't acquired the Hyper Zecter yet. It is acceptable to leave those to our imagination and interpretation, because trying to dig deeper in a series with that topic is really pointless because at this point in time, we could never really know.

 

[Aoi Kurenai]

One thing you forget is the intended target audience for these shows. Kabuto is meant to be watched by children and moms who doesn't need those explanations you seek.

Ah, yeah. Sorry, I'm done with this conversation then. :/ This is about as lame a cop out as you can get and I won't waste my time trying to convince another person it's not okay to write a poor series because of the target audiences, you're belittling their intelligence and that of generations of shows that have actually properly explained their universe's workings. You're kinda just missing the point here. :/ It doesn't matter if what we know in reality is slim to nothing, a good writer can pull stuff out of their ass and make it work. The point here is that Yonemura didn't even try to do that. It fails as a proper narrative because he didn't bother to explain anything within the confines of his own reality. He is the script writer, he is the god to that universe and can do what he wants, yes, that means he can do what he did in the series and be lazy, but a good writer would take time to set up laws and workings for their own series.The point here is that Yonemura just brought things out of nowhere and didn't bother to tell us how or why and saying that it can work there because we don't know how it works in reality is a rather lame excuse and about as poor as you can get when it comes to writing a proper story.

 

[MrMonk]

It is an unrevealed mystery for a reason, because it is open to our interpretation.

It's unrevealed because he didn't care. Let's not confused the two.

A lot, like if you meet with your past self, will that disrupt space-time? If you bring an object from the future in the past, will that disrupt space-time? If you changed history, will that change the future? Or just make a parallel universe where the new events based on what you changed are taking place? If you kill somebody in the past, will that person disappear in the future? There are so many theories with Space-Time Continuum out there that the writer probably decided to just stay in the safe side wherein he didn't go to one path only.

If I were a fictional character it would depend on the rules of the fictional world the writer crafted for me. At some point the writer would either have to explain those rules, or provide enough action to clearly infer them.

Again, it comes from the future or some dimensional rift which is impossible to explain. That's enough to know, no need to sniff it even more.

No, they just didn't care enough to try.

This is generally the same state as those people, we don't really know what the future holds for us, and since Kabuto's theme dwells on that, it is acceptable to not have any explanation on those.

Dude, even Jet Li's The One had rules for space time. Clear. Concise. Rules.

JET LI'S THE ONE!

THE ONE!

The entire point of that movie was to have Jet Li fight himself.

Again, it is a mystery when you look at it as something being based on time paradoxes. Did it come from the future? Did it come from a parallel universe? Did it come from a different dimension? Just look at God Speed Love, Tendou changed the past which led to a different alternate universe, which might also explain the Hyper Kabuto showing up in the series even though Tendou hasn't acquired the Hyper Zecter yet. It is acceptable to leave those to our imagination and interpretation, because trying to dig deeper in a series with that topic is really pointless because at this point in time, we could never really know.

It wasn't used for more than 30 episodes. There's no reason it should have suddenly become a more frequent occurrence just because its existence was revealed. Its non use is perfectly consistent.

Sigh. They feign enough importance in the episodes that it came in, that it should've appeared prior to them. That's the point. It's supposedly installed on every Zecter and yet Drake had no issues with Rena. Or Gattack and his conflict with Sasword in his Worm form.

There... is... no... consistency.

 

[musashi03]

I get your points now, how it was a fail on Yonemura's part, but being used to those kinds of topics, I don't really see the problem at all. Yes he might have been lazy, but it fit the theme of Kabuto for some people.

The One had a lot of issues too, as to all of the energy or your parallel versions going to the live ones? So does that mean that when my parallel version dies of an accident in some other parallel universe, I get stronger? So does that mean that when somebody dies in any of those parallel universe, all of his parallel versions dies at the same time since it would make the surviving one, "the one"? See, all of these flicks have issues of their own, yet you ignore it because it will be pointless. Same as in Kabuto.

 

[MrMonk]

I get your points now, how it was a fail on Yonemura's part, but being used to those kinds of topics, I don't really see the problem at all. Yes he might have been lazy, but it fit the theme of Kabuto for some people.

And I'm totally cool with that. Man, Decade had some plot holes, but I enjoyed it immensely. I'm just saying it wasn't good writing. Kabuto remains my favorite suit performance from Seiji as well.

The One had a lot of issues too, as to all of the energy or your parallel versions going to the live ones? So does that mean that when my parallel version dies of an accident in some other parallel universe, I get stronger?

They made that rather clear actually. The death of a counterpart is what tipped evil Jet Li off in the first place. The energy is shared between all versions of a person. As there are less of them, the remaining versions become stronger.

That was not only explicit (they say it), but also implicit (Good Jet Li noticed he was getting stronger)

So does that mean that when somebody dies in any of those parallel universe, all of his parallel versions dies at the same time since it would make the surviving one, "the one"?

No. I'm not sure how you got there from the previous idea. The entire point of the movie is evil Jet Li was killing alternates one at a time.

See, all of these flicks have issues of their own, yet you ignore it because it will be pointless. Same as in Kabuto.

With the above, this statement becomes moot. The One is a cheap, cheesy movie that still has a logical consistency in its world (not necessarily in its characters).

Btw, aren't most people talking about the Hyper Zecter...not the Perfect Zector?

 

[musashi03]

And I'm totally cool with that. Man, Decade had some plot holes, but I enjoyed it immensely. I'm just saying it wasn't good writing. Kabuto remains my favorite suit performance from Seiji as well.

Same here, his suit performance was reminiscent of Jiro Okamoto, few movements, but always leaves an impact.

They made that rather clear actually. The death of a counterpart is what tipped evil Jet Li off in the first place. The energy is shared between all versions of a person. As there are less of them, the remaining versions become stronger.

That was not only explicit (they say it), but also implicit (Good Jet Li noticed he was getting stronger)

Yes, then why is Jet Li the only one getting stronger? How about the other people? Don't they feel they get stronger when a version of them in another universe dies? Is Jet Li the only one who has 2 versions left? I mean some guy in that world could be the only one left since his versions were all dead in some other universe, yet Jet Li seems to be the only 'lucky' one to have those effects.

If you were in that kind of world, then everybody is bound to be stronger at some point in time because people die of different causes. If you are really old, and your other versions die of old age, you are still bound to be stronger even if the additional power is just miniscule, because your strength will double every time a version of you dies, so an old man who is minutes from death can achieve superhuman strength when he's the only one left of his versions.

See what I mean now? It's also a plot-hole if you apply real world logic in it.

No. I'm not sure how you got there from the previous idea. The entire point of the movie is evil Jet Li was killing alternates one at a time.

With the above, this statement becomes moot. The One is a cheap, cheesy movie that still has a logical consistency in its world (not necessarily in its characters).

Because as what I have said, somebody is bound to also be "the one" at any point in time in that world, because versions of yourself can die in any other universe for a lot of different reasons, yet Jet Li was the only one reaping the benefits of his alternates' deaths. Is their world "new" for only Jet Li to have experienced it? For millions of years, nobody experienced the same thing? Jet Li was the first to have his strength increased from a dead alternate universe version?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the movie, I even have an original VCD copy of it when DVDs were not yet popular. But those kinds of movies with those themes aren't meant to be questioned really, since it is what it is, and same can be applied for Kabuto. For me, they made it that way since we were already exposed to different ideas of Space-Time Continuum, hence Yonemura (who probably got lazy) just depended on that. Might have been a problem to a lot of people, but a lot of other people thought it was just OK.

Btw, aren't most people talking about the Hyper Zecter...not the Perfect Zector?

Perfect Zecter actually, since they said it came out of nowhere and stole everybody else's powers. For me, it's just the same as Hyper Zecter, it came from a point in time somewhere in the future. And it only used powers which wasn't really needed. It took a zecter with no user, with a worm for its user, and a wuss for its user.

 

[MrMonk]

Yes, then why is Jet Li the only one getting stronger? How about the other people? Don't they feel they get stronger when a version of them in another universe dies? Is Jet Li the only one who has 2 versions left? I mean some guy in that world could be the only one left since his versions were all dead in some other universe, yet Jet Li seems to be the only 'lucky' one to have those effects.

Evil Jet Li was part of the Multiverse police prior to all of this. He was one of the few with knowledge and the means to jump from world to world.

By time the movie starts, he's killed 122 versions of himself.

If you were in that kind of world, then everybody is bound to be stronger at some point in time because people die of different causes. If you are really old, and your other versions die of old age, you are still bound to be stronger even if the additional power is just miniscule, because your strength will double every time a version of you dies, so an old man who is minutes from death can achieve superhuman strength when he's the only one left of his versions.

And he has superhuman strength and dies moment later. All of these things could happen and it'd fit with the logic of the show. It was never explored as the story was about Jet Li.

And the strength does not double. It's like you've split the same amount of water between multiple glasses. As you take a glass away, you pour its water into the remaining glasses. Each glass retains more water as you remove glasses. Until you're left with a single full glass.

Again, you're trying to prove your point, but you're missing the mark on this one.

See what I mean now? It's also a plot-hole if you apply real world logic in it.

See above. Everything remains explained explicitly and reinforced by foreshadowing through the movie.

Because as what I have said, somebody is bound to also be "the one" at any point in time in that world, because versions of yourself can die in any other universe for a lot of different reasons, yet Jet Li was the only one reaping the benefits of his alternates' deaths. Is their world "new" for only Jet Li to have experienced it? For millions of years, nobody experienced the same thing? Jet Li was the first to have his strength increased from a dead alternate universe version?

No, they explicitly say it's a problem because he retains the means to jump from world to world.

I generally doubt they'd care if there was a superhuman old man running around, as long as he didn't kill himself in other realities.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the movie, I even have an original VCD copy of it when DVDs were not yet popular. But those kinds of movies with those themes aren't meant to be questioned really, since it is what it is, and same can be applied for Kabuto. For me, they made it that way since we were already exposed to different ideas of Space-Time Continuum, hence Yonemura (who probably got lazy) just depended on that. Might have been a problem to a lot of people, but a lot of other people thought it was just OK.

Again, those points were all made in the movie. The consistency remains.

God, you have me analyzing The One. The movie only had two good scenes.

Perfect Zecter actually, since they said it came out of nowhere and stole everybody else's powers. For me, it's just the same as Hyper Zecter, it came from a point in time somewhere in the future. And it only used powers which wasn't really needed. It took a zecter with no user, with a worm for its user, and a wuss for its user.

It would've taken the Gattack Zecter as well. Tendou purposefully leaves Kagami with his Zecter in order to stop him if he goes astray.

I'll be out in a while to have a haircut, I know somebody is bound to answer my questions with The One, which is precisely my point. These kinds of topics offers a lot of ways to interpret them, a lot of new questions, a lot of new answers. It is always the same thing when dealing with Space-Time. So if you can come up with answers with my questions for The One, then somebody can do the same thing with your questions in Kabuto. It is a never-ending cycle really, until we reach a point in time that those questions already have a concrete answers... Somewhere in the future perhaps? We could never really know...

It took me a couple of seconds. Everything was in the movie.

It said, 'this is how the multiverse works'

And then it stuck to it.

That you can hypothesize how it would affect another person in the universe isn't a plothole. If you believe it is, then I've failed in explaining what a plothole is to you.

 

[musashi03]

Evil Jet Li was part of the Multiverse police prior to all of this. He was one of the few with knowledge and the means to jump from world to world.

By time the movie starts, he's killed 122 versions of himself.

Yes, but that doesn't explain as to why Jet Li was the only one having that effect. Anybody could have been stronger because of a death of their version from an alternate universe. Even those who were chasing Evil Jet Li, some of those guys could have been stronger than anybody else, yet it seems they are all just the same level since it seems their AU counterparts were A-OK.

And he has superhuman strength and dies moment later. All of these things could happen and it'd fit with the logic of the show. It was never explored as the story was about Jet Li.

Yes, it was about Jet Li... Same as the Perfect Zecter, Kabuto was about Kagami actually.

And the strength does not double. It's like you've split the same amount of water between multiple glasses. As you take a glass away, you pour its water into the remaining glasses. Each glass retains more water as you remove glasses. Until you're left with a single full glass.

Which will make any man stronger than anybody else still, since everybody else's water level seems to be the same as if no other version of themselves has died yet other than Jet Li's.

Again, you're trying to prove your point, but you're missing the mark on this one.

Don't think so. :sweat:

See above. Everything remains explained explicitly and reinforced by foreshadowing through the movie.

It was foreshadowed in Kabuto too, having an unexplained appearance of Hyper Kabuto, then they thought he came from the future. Then came Hyper Zecter who went through time, which may have been the same case for Perfect Zecter, we just haven't reached the time where it was created yet unlike the Hyper Zecter.

No, they explicitly say it's a problem because he retains the means to jump from world to world.

So somebody having superhuman strength than anybody else for no reason at all is not a problem? If you see somebody as thin as the stick man carry a truck, that wouldn't warrant some multiverse investigation since it is definitely an imbalanced effect between the multiverse?

I generally doubt they'd care if there was a superhuman old man running around, as long as he didn't kill himself in other realities.

Well, there, you're assuming, same as in Kabuto, we can assume all we want as to the origins of Perfect Zecter right?

Again, those points were all made in the movie. The consistency remains.

Yep, but logic still has flaws.

God, you have me analyzing The One. The movie only had two good scenes.

Sorry. :sweat:

It would've taken the Gattack Zecter as well. Tendou purposefully leaves Kagami with his Zecter in order to stop him if he goes astray.

Well, I did say I considered it as "Perfect" because of its perfect timing, it only took what it needed to take, it only appeared when it needed to appear.

Ok, I'm going out to get a haircut now. See ya later! :thumbs: