Kamen Rider W vs OOO: which was the better show?

Eiji has a motivation. He said it perfectly clearly: That he literally wants to help all the people who he can reach with his hands. That's all he ever wanted.

His only desire was to have the power to be able to do that, and that desire was granted in episode 1, when he got the OOO driver. That's why for the rest of the series, he did not desire for anything else: because he already has what he desires.

That was all explained in the final episodes and hinted at several times during the series.
 
There's no real motivation behind anything Eiji does though. Like, they hand wave at a motivation existing but then they just gloss over it and never really go into depth with it from what I've seen.

Speaking of which...



Well, that's another problem. I found the show so bad that I couldn't finish it.

I tried to watch it when it was first coming out, then gave up and waited to see what key episodes to check out and tried to skim through those. After that, to be totally blunt about it, I did not want to waste any more of my time on a show I felt was as unpleasant to watch as OOOs.

Keep in mind the issue I've brought up is only one of MANY problems I feel OOOs has but I'm trying to not go off on a long winded rant here because nobody really wants to read that. :loltongue:

Well, I do understand dropping something if I didnt warm up to it at the beginning. I would only wish to disagree with that one point you did make about mindless consumption as someone who has watched OOO start to finish.
 
Hmmm...when I think of W, it is more the traditional comic book super hero while OOOs is the grand adventure.

W has the power and takes the responsibility to clean up the badguys.

OOOs is the guy swept up in the grand scheme of it all.

W I freely admit I want more of. Skull, Accell, all of em, I can't get enough. When I hear the trumpet and they strike a pose it is "@Q#%is going down!" to me.

OOOs, for me I am done. I got an awesome story, cool characters who were fleshed out quite nicely. And then the badguys went bye bye, so why do we need him anymore? Let him have his life.

W, had a science behind it...ok, a strange one, but still had it. The evil was manuafactured, the weapons built, etc...

OOOs was a goofy fun magic. I liked the Cells system, and the limited CORE medals. Just seriosly...what was with the singing? That was the hardest part for me to get over...but I did.

Which is better? Well do you want a finite open and close story? Or are you wanting a hero who can always have adventures.
 
Honestly, I liked them both, maybe W a little more

But that has to do mostly with the huge downward 10 or so episode slump OOO took after Date showed up, still a very solid series none the less

Another gripe I had with OOO was, of course, the lack of random form combinations

I haven't had the chance to rewatch W, but I think it may have had a similar problem as well
 
Basically what they did with W's show was like everything gone wrong for me, and OOO was everything done right.

Yeah, I felt the exact opposite of this. :P

I dunno, at the end of the day I feel like Double is Captain America: The First Avenger and OOOs is the Bayformer movies.

I could possibly understand someone ENJOYING the latter more than the former (and if that's your thing, go for it), but trying to argue that the latter is ARTISTICALLY a better product than the former is something I will have to shake my head and say you are wrong on, sir or madame.
 
Yeah, I felt the exact opposite of this. :P

I dunno, at the end of the day I feel like Double is Captain America: The First Avenger and OOOs is the Bayformer movies.

I could possibly understand someone ENJOYING the latter more than the former (and if that's your thing, go for it), but trying to argue that the latter is ARTISTICALLY a better product than the former is something I will have to shake my head and say you are wrong on, sir or madame.

You know the last part of what you said makes you sound like a stuck up elitist. :sweat:

I mean what makes you better able to tell some one else what is artistically better or not better than something else? :redface2:

I loved both OOO and W. They both were amazing IMO. They both had their good and bad.
 
Yeah, I felt the exact opposite of this. :P

I dunno, at the end of the day I feel like Double is Captain America: The First Avenger and OOOs is the Bayformer movies.

I could possibly understand someone ENJOYING the latter more than the former (and if that's your thing, go for it), but trying to argue that the latter is ARTISTICALLY a better product than the former is something I will have to shake my head and say you are wrong on, sir or madame.

The fact that you haven't bothered to watch it in full automatically discredits this entire post. Seriously, it does.

And about it being "artistic", (which I saw no one here say at all, and I'd shake my head at it just as well) we aren't even talking about some kind of subtext you need to dig deep for. It's in the script.

IF YOU WATCHED THE SHOW, you'd know full well about the topics and themes it constantly goes back and forth about.

"All living things act only on their own desire."
"DESIRE IS EVOLUTION! IT BRINGS NEW THINGS TO THE WORLD!"
"I'm so selfish. I don't even consider how anyone else feels."
"Thinking of others first is a good thing, but there are also times when you need to think about you."
"Seeking what you know is unobtainable will just make your life empty."
"Even good intentions can be corrupted."
"You can't save others if you don't take care of yourself, too."
"There's nothing wrong with wanting things, it comes down to how you seek to attain those wants."

There's a difference between simply disliking a show honestly and making assumptions to justify your position. You don't NEED the later. Just say you dislike the show, and be honest about it.

I'll give you an example. I hated what I saw from Kiva, and I'll copypaste why.

Kiva's just bad if you ask me.

It seems to care more about filling in a fight scene quota than actually giving us a story that makes sense. It shouldn't take more than two episodes to have a decent enough idea of what's going on, but the show just doesn't seem to care. First episode we get something of an introduction, but then out of nowhere the hero does his henshin and fights a monster. It's so jarring and abrupt! And then from the next episode it just turns into monster of the week, acting as if I have any clue what's going on!

And the dual timeline idea is just done incredibly poorly. You mean to tell me that the vampire killer from the past was just SO bad at her job that Kiva has to finish off the monsters 20 years later, and this happens EACH episode for the monster of the week? From what I saw each episode is just a flashback to the vampire killer fighting a vampire, the thing getting a distinctive scar or something from the fight, and then resurfacing 20 years later for Kiva to finish off. The dual timelines is an interesting idea in itself, but they obviously couldn't think of anything to do with it.

I never got any kind of hint as to who the hell Kiva is other than his germophobia quirk. Who is he? Where did he get his powers? What does all the mess have to do with him? What is the robot bat thing? When am I gonna find any of this crap out?

How can they mess up a series that had a decent theme going for it? A gothic horror Kamen Rider sounds kinda cool.

I thought I'd give Kiva a second chance.

5 episodes in and it still has the exact same problems that made me quit the first time.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!

It just throws this garbage at you and somehow expect you to just go with it! The characters are fully aware of what's going on, but the audience is left completely in the dark, making it impossible to know when they'll EVER bother!

What IS Kiva and where do his powers come from? How do they work?
What the hell is that talking metal/plastic bat thing that serves as his transformation trinket?
What is that giant dragon castle thing? How do people live in it? And why does it eat the souls of the monsters that Kiva kills?
What are the rules for the vampires in this show? It's clear that these vampires work on their own rules.
Do the flashbacks to the lives of Kiva's father and Megumi's mother have ANY point outside of establishing monsters to appear 22 years later, proving that these vampire hunters are absolutely terrible at their jobs?

I have no problem with a show leaving the audience at a reasonable place in the dark. Kuuga, Agito, and Blade are like that, but they all do it RIGHT. The difference is that the central characters in those shows know just as much about what's going on as the audience does, and we learn along with them. I think that all fiction with outlandish concepts should always start with the audience seeing it through the eyes of a character that knows just as much as they do.

Kiva knows what's going on, so he has no reason to bother explaining it for the audience to be on his level. And it's such an easy fix! Just have Kiva's sidekick/caretaker find out that he's a superhero and then have him EXPLAIN to her everything she and the audience need to know! But has that happened yet? NO!

I've watched 10% of the show and I'm still asking the same questions I had since the first episode? NOTHING HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED SINCE THE FIRST EPISODE. It just assumes I'm supposed to know what's going on, and the dual timeline still has no point.

On top of that, once Kiva does his henshin he completely loses any personality he had and fights become boring as hell. All he does is grunt and growl. Except when he powers up from one of his nameless allies who live inside the dragon castle thing. Then he just makes DIFFERENT grunts and growls. He shows no character, he doesn't talk, he doesn't do anything interesting. It's a serious step down from the distinct personalities in Den-O.

On the flip side, Megumi is an annoying character. She's intrusive, self righteous, condescending, and conceited.

All the bad crap out of the way, I must say that despite all of that dragging it down, there is an ok amount of humor. Doesn't save anything, but at least there's some stuff that's funny.

That dog should be dead, by the way. You could easily say it's the dog's grandson or something, but they want to sell it as if it's the same dog.

Notice what I did there? I only talked about what I CAN talk about: the first five episodes. I can't talk about any more than that, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T WATCHED ANYMORE. I CAN'T make a ridiculous statement along the lines of your "OOO = Micheal Bay", because I have absolutely no ground to make that claim.

I haven't watched the entire show. I don't know how it ends, and I DON'T know what happens in the remaining 43 episodes. I CAN'T talk about the show as a whole in ANY sense, because I wouldn't know what I was talking about. All I have is the first 5 episodes to work from, and I explained what it was about those that made me give up.

Just DO THAT, acknowledge that your view is still limited, and stick with your own honest opinion. Acting as if you know as much or more than the other people who went through all of it is pointless.
 
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No one is forcing someone else to finish something they clearly dont feel like watchng any further, I think. Only that it tends to make one's opinion less strong if it is based on first impressions or incomplete viewing.

First impressions may be lasting, but it certainly doesnt always hold true to the end. OOO planted seeds of its plot early, yes. But it did take its time, sufficient time I feel for a standard KR season. But there are some ppl that want to be amazed upfront, and thats fine too.

Im not even saying that all the ppl that disliked OOO couldnt be bothered finishing it either as Im certain there ppl that did saw it through the end and still not liked it.

As much as I loathe and despise Kiva and Kabuto, I watch them start to finish, more than once even. Doesnt make my hate or opinions about it the gospel of truth, ofc. Only that I can say that I tried to understand what they were doing. And from what I gathered so far, I feel that what those 2 shows were doing were NOT thinking and NOT making sense. Stupid seasons.

Its cool to hate on shows we dont like and dropping it. In cases where I actually gave up on the show, I at least tried to justify it with what I have seen up to the point I gave up on it. Guessing on what happened beyond that would would just be me pulling stuff out of nowhere that really doesnt make my opinion more believable.
 
You know the last part of what you said makes you sound like a stuck up elitist. :sweat:

No, it would be "stuck up elitist" if I said my statement was a definitive fact and not purely my feelings on the subject.

Or that anyone who disagreed with me/had an intense feeling about something was somehow "stupid" or "stuck up".

I mean what makes you better able to tell some one else what is artistically better or not better than something else? :redface2:

Because there are certain basic benchmarks of quality that any product can be held to?

And just because OOOs, IMO, does not meet those benchmarks does not disqualify it from being unenjoyable to those who don't care about those things.

I used the Captain America and Bayformers comparison BECAUSE they're things where I enjoy both of them but can readily acknowledge the faults of the latter.

I'm not saying it's bad to enjoy OOOs more than Double if that's your thing. I'm just saying I'll disagree if you say OOOs is objectively better is all.

That's all I can do, really. :P

The fact that you haven't bothered to watch it in full automatically discredits this entire post. Seriously, it does.

No, it REALLY doesn't.

The whole idea of "you're only allowed an opinion on something if you've sat through the entire show" is something I find kind of objectionable and offensive.

Especially since, if we're talking about which show was "better" then artistic issues that might have caused someone to stop watching are fair game to bring up and discuss.

And again, this is just my opinion. Not cold hard fact.
 

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