2018-2019 Kamen Rider

[Hangyakuno]

Nope, when anyone transform into rider, he/she can do martial art in limited extend. This is fictional and everything can happen, Rider suit give anyone magical power and fighting prowess they never have. Especially Heisei Rider consist mostly young person which have peaceful life suddenly have to fight against monster.
Even at first they fighting poorly, after they get the suit, they will and have to show some martial art that they shouldn't have.

Atleast Tsukuyomi have guts to fight monster in frontline even though most of it is fight to retreat. Not just shooting, she did kick tackling a monster before. Think of it as Rider power give her the strength to move and do anything she can't do before.
Fighting style? Even if you have it but your body is weak to make it useful and you have a gun at your disposal, you will choose ranged battle especially if you against monster which can easily subdue martial artist. Now what if you have anything you need to make your martial art to be useful, like from a belt and a watch?

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

You do realize that the whole "they get a magical suit and is suddenly able to fight" part of fiction is total bullshit right? Like, as much as I love Tokusatsu or anything Superhero related, that's the one part I have a problem with.

Just because it's fiction and "anything can happen" doesn't mean it HAS to throw away logic. And just because it's fiction, doesn't mean it can't be good fiction (that's why literature classes are important). I'm not calling out Tsukuyomi only. This was just the last straw for me, in a sense when it comes to the amount of bullshit they do. The suit doesn't make you have style though. All it does is enhance your power. At least, with a character like say, Wataru, it makes sense in Kiva that he has some supernatural strength, and that the Kiva armor is more of a mystical transformation that alters his body. Plus, he's had it for years. Tsukuyomi is just a human with time powers. That's kinda it.

Let's take a look at all the Heisei examples then;
Kuuga - Godai has over 2000 skills, pretty sure some of that included mastering some type of martial arts (he did Kendo for Titan form's abilities and even practiced jumping and spinning mid air kick)
Agito - It's a mystical/spiritual power that takes over you, Shouichi even showed signs of being overtaken by some kind of "instinct" that is almost like a personality change.
Gills - Ryo was an athlete swimmer, who also picked fights with people a lot. His fighting style as Gills makes sense since it combines his pain with his animalistic behavior.
G3 - Hikawa is a trained police officer.
Another Agito - Like the previous Agito Riders, supernatural powers and it seems that anyone who becomes an Agito has the animal-like instinct to fight.
G4 - He's a soldier.
Ryuki - Shinji isn't an expert fighter. He slowly grows. Just look at his initial appearance.
Knight - Ren probably a punk much like Ryo.
Zolda - He doesn't do a lot of hand to hand combat either.
Scissors - it's been established he's a serial killer. Dude probably knows enough ways to overpower enough people, doesn't mean he's great at it. but swinging a claw around as your weapon doesn't require much training.
Gai - Makes no sense, but okay, Ryuki needs padding to market 13 toys.
Raia - Makes no sense still, but okay, 13 Rider toys.
Ouja - Asakura is pretty much a violent person, I'm sure this is perfectly valid.
Verde - dude's a rich businessman. I'm sure he has access to trainers and what not. Still doesn't excuse a lot of the stunts he's able to pull off.
Tiger - Houjo was all "I'm a hero stuff" it's not crazy to think he'd actually dedicate his time to training.
Imperer - Another hard case to believe, but hey, 13 toys.
Femme - okay, I'm inclined to believe it in a sense, she's been shown to be kinda street smart and clever, but her actions are all too bombastic either.
Ryuga - Mirror world character, he's not human.
Odin - Overseer of the whole thing, plus he barely has a style.
Faiz - Takumi was established as an adroit. He picks up things easily. Plus, as an Orphenoch he's probably fought his fair share, and as a human too.
Kaixa - Kusaka trained a lot for excellence. Valid.
Detla - Yeah, Mihara kinda isn't. Cause Mihara, but at least his fighting style reflects his personality too. It's not as graceful as Kitasaki.
Psyga - He's part of Smart Brain. Pretty sure he's up there in getting his routine, plus Orphenoch.
Orga - Kiba spent his whole life fighting after becoming an Orphenoch. It's not far of a stretch.
Blade - Trained by Board.
Garren - Trained by Board.
Chalice - Undead, born to fight.
Leangle - Mutsuki was under the Spider Undead's influence. A lot of that probably bled into his own personality as well.
Glaive - Tachibana's new division of BOARD, of course he'd be trained. Plus Albino Undead.
Larc - BOARD.
Lance - BOARD.
ALL Hibiki Riders - they have been shown time and time again that they train.
Kabuto - Tendou is Tendou.
TheBee - all it's users have been shown that they have some level of training.
Drake - not sure how a make up artist knows how to fight actually.
Sasword - Tsurugi is from a family with a legacy. Jiiya probably taught him a few things here or there or he learned and took lessons.
Gattack - character development, plus he's always struggled to become stronger.
KickHopper and PunchHopper - Went to hell.
Movie Riders - They're either Zect or Neo-Zect.
Den-O - Ryotaro doesn't even come into his own until the end and left all the fighting up to the Taros.
Zeronos - He's strong. Somehow, that's part of his character. Also, when he appeared, it looked like he summoned lightning for his debut, and that was never explained again.
Gaoh - Timejacking before it was Zi-O.
Nega Den-O - Imagin.
Yuuki - This dude's supernatural.
New Den-O - He's strong that's part of his character, like Zeronos (by the way, if you haven't noticed, everytime I say being "strong" is part of their character, it's sarcastic and meant to mean it doesn't make sense. Just as much as "strong female characters" where their only defining quality is how physically strong they are). And there to look like the opposite of Ryotaro.
Kiva - already explained that above.
IXA - Trained Fangire Hunter.
Saga - King of the Fangires, a race that preys on humans. Yeah, this explains itself.
Dark Kiva - Armor of the Kings, anyone?
Rey - agent of an organization.
Arc - Possession-ex-machina.
Decade - Well, it's Decade.
DiEnd - Whatever Decade does, he rolls with it, somehow.
Kivala - Because we needed a place where the inception of the Tsukuyomi incident happens.
Abyss - Undead.
W - I'm pretty sure two souls fighting together somehow gives the body certain abilities it didn't normally have. Plus, Phillip learns quickly, and Shotaro is trying to be hard-boiled.
Accel - Cop.
Eternal - NEVER.
Skull - Hard-boiled badass detective who occasionally puts his life on the line to solve crime? I'll let this one slide.
OOO - Okay, this one might not pass. Eiji was a hobo and peace lover. He wasn't established as an adroit like Takumi was, but living as a hobo day to day means he has to adapt, SOMEHOW. I think they stretched this one a bit too far.
Birth - Date kinda came out of nowhere, and seemed like a perfect fit due to his actor's fitness, despite the fact that Gotou is supposed to be one who was trained by the Kougami foundation.
Poseidon/Aqua - Future Kamen Rider before the Zi-O did Future Riders? Not much of an explanation here.
Fourze - Attempts at emulating high school themed punk? Yeah, I dropped this show after he got the Elek Switch, and the only things I saw are clips here and there, so I have no idea if Gentaro even trained or anything.
Meteor - Apparently he's supposed to be emulating Bruce Lee, which I find hilarious and annoying since it's so far off or trying too hard.
Nadeshiko - alien-space thingy?
Wizard - He's a magician, and honestly, I don't believe Haruto's actor can pull off those mid-air cartwheels his armored self could. So, Wizard lost me on it's believability, even if Haruto has to somehow constantly fight against his own despair.
Beast - Well... Nitou kinda has to SOMEHOW get good cause his life depends on it.
White Wizard - Well... Carbuncle Phantom anyone?
Secondary Wizards - Well, they're pretty much the RiotTroopers aren't they? I didn't even include RiotTroopers on this list, but I thought they were kinda bullshit.
Kamen Rider Sorcerer - well, Villain and Phantom.
Gaim - Kouta dances, and does parkour (at least his actor has experiences in it) Plus, he slowly comes to learn how to use the Sengoku Driver more efficiently.
Kaito - Grew up in a bad home, became an orphan, had to fight his way through life.

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

Michi - Cowardly, and he's shown to not be a great fighter either, but is a great tactician until he gets his hands on the Genesis Driver, it's power becomes a moment that cements his willingness to do dirty things. The point when he gets Yomutsuheguri Arms you can clearly see this guy's already gone through so much to the point that he's developed some sense of fighting skill.
Gridon - one of the most cowardly Riders, doesn't even have a decent fight scene honestly, and that's fighting of his character.
Kurokage - kind of a punk already, but isn't skilled either.
Zangetsu - Obviously, Takatora lived by the "Noblesse Oblige" motto.
Duke - Ryoma has shown he's capable of at least SOME fighting skills, but even he isn't some great fighter. It's more on the basis of his Genesis Driver being much stronger than the Sengoku Driver in how much power it puts out.
Marika - She obviously knows how to fight. Literally, "strong female character" that isn't sarcastically thrown in.
Sigurd - Well, Sid deals in the underworld. It's reasonable enough to believe he's dirtied his hands before.
Knuckle - He's part of Kaito's group. Pretty sure Kaito said he only surrounded himself with the strong.
Bravo - Former Military.
Gaim Movie Riders outside of Kurokage Shin - Not human.
Idunn - Zawame's Children, experimented on and pretty sure she picked up some skills of her own.
Tyrant - I actually have a hard time believing this character's skill a bit, but hey, he turns into an Inves.
Jam - not human.
Black Baron - I believe I can't keep saying "punk", but obviously that's how his written.
Savor - Well, dead, he's somewhat supernatural with the power of the Zakuro lockseed.
Drive - Cop.
Mach - Trained in America.
Chase - Roidmude.
Heart - Roidmude.
Brain - Roidmude.
Dark Drive - Roidmude, and originally, Shinnosuke's son. Probably carried on the Kamen Rider legacy from his father.
Gold Drive - A.I. with Roidmude body.
Ghost - Dead plus Supernatural powers. I dropped Ghost though, so I can't say much about all of it, although like Fourze, I did watch snippets of it to just get the context of each character.
Spectre - stuck in the other world and befriended Alan, and a genetically engineered human.
Necrom - not human, also royalty.
Zero Spectre and Zero Ghost - Previous Generation of Ghost hunters I suppose.
All other Ghost Riders - Not Human.
Ex-Aid - Emu has his M Personality which was always Parado. And a lot of his game knowledge came into play. But I also fail to see why a doctor knows these stunt skills.
Brave - handpicked for the Gamer Driver. Had to at least undergo SOME kind of training.
Snipe - Put himself through hell to become a Kamen Rider.
Lazer - Like Emu, I question why a medical professional knows how to fight, but as much as I like Kiriya's character, I'd like to stop putting the word "punk" or "punk-like" on every character that is just pulling the archetype now without fully being it.
Gemn- Well, he is the developer of the Gamer Driver. Although, with his actor and that physique, I doubt he's some expert martial artist in real life, however, I do believe in the context of how his character's written, he should be able to prepare himself to become a Rider well enough by training a bit. Obviously, just because someone's acting is pretty convincing as an actor, doesn't mean their physique is completely right for the role they're supposed to be portraying.
Para-DX - Bugster.
Poppy - Bugster, although doesn't seem like fighting is her strong suit either.
Cronus - Masumune is a shrewed businessman, much like Verde. Plus, he doesn't really do much action outside of walking and talking and abusing the Pause button. Any skill he knows is simply picked up through his access to whatever a rich man has access to and decides to spend time and money on it. He does fuse with Gemedeus though. Plus, time being spent in Jail can toughen up someone, unless Masamune is one of those who has a special privilege cell of his own.
Fuma - well, not really explained.
True Brave - Game World Hiiro.
Another Paradox - Bugster.
Build - Okay, I can't even justify this. Katsuragi Takumi was a scrawny scientist. Just because his appearance has changed and now he's Kiryu Sento, doesn't really mean much.
Cross-Z - Well, he's a boxer. But then again, his actor's physique doesn't really suggest that. Also, not human.
Grease - Previously a farmer turned mercenary, pumped up with a high Hazard level.
Rogue - Dude went through hell.
Mad Rogue - Cyborg.
Evolt - not human.
Build's Father - Researcher, obviously, this bit doesn't make much sense, but it does make sense he'd at least try to become Build.
Blood - possessed.
Killbus - Evolt's brother.
Metal Build - Don't know, haven't seen the Grease spinoff yet.
Zi-O - Well, he's Zi-O. Not gonna even get into why him or his actor doesn't seem fit for the story at all or why he even knows how to fight.
Geiz - Part of the resistance against Oma Zi-O. At least he makes sense.
Both Woz - Part of the Quartzer group.
Zi-O movie riders - Quartzer group.

And that brings me to Tsukuyomi. Sure, you can say she's also part of the same resistance as Geiz and has probably fought too, but the writers have almost given her nothing memorable to do, nor have they shown the significant moments she fights back. Despite being written as part of the resistance group, they have never filmed her doing anything much in a fight besides what I mentioned, shooting her gun and never having any effect. So, tell me, how exactly does it make sense, even in a fictional setting, that characters somehow "know how to fight" and "get a fighting style". I'm sure you can debunk some of the characters here I listed and the logic to why they probably shouldn't know how to fight, but I'm sure I've also given some examples as to why they do.​

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

As you can see by my list though, the "no learned skill or fighting talent" problem began as early as Ryuki, but they weren't a prominent and glaring part of the story structure and didn't have much of an impact on the narrative as much as Tsukuyomi's characterization does. You can probably pick Mihara from Faiz as another symptom, but even then, most characters from then on kinda had a reasonable excuse. I forgot to mention Dark Kabuto, but he's a worm and was experimented on as well, plus was kept imprisoned. Drake doesn't have much of an excuse either. Really, the glaring problem when it came to a main protagonist not really being justified in being able to fight, for me at least, began with OOO, and to that extent, you can also cite Kivala as a glaring problem in the plot and overall narrative as well when it comes to Decade. At least with Den-O, they had Ryotaro slowly becoming able to.

The whole protagonists not knowing how to fight thing really becomes a big issue with Fourze onwards. Wizard doesn't make you feel like Haruto can fight because his actor doesn't seem believable, Ghost's Takeru has the same complaints from me as Sougo from Zi-O, and to an extent, Emu from Ex-Aid (although I will give them the Parado explanation). It's with Build that thing really took to a whole next level.

 

[Kamen Rider IXA]

I'd wanted to say that in case of Duke, Ryoma himself isn't really the fighting type and it's the raw power of his hand-tuned Genesis Driver that makes him so strong, but then you have his Gaiden where he fights fine on his own with Sengoku Driver, so yeah.

Verde - dude's a rich businessman. I'm sure he has access to trainers and what not.

Gai was a rich boy as well tbf. And wasn't he doing some Fight Club thing? Also, Raia got his ass handed to him every time, so it's not like show pretended he was good at fighting.
Imperer is pretty weird case, because he fights in similar style to GekiViolet using some sort of martial art, but show makes it clear that his father throw him out to make a living for himself and he doesn't seem like the guy to have time or money for a proper training.

so I have no idea if Gentaro even trained or anything.

Fourze make it pretty clear early on that Gentaro is adept at fighting and physical activities in general. That's part of the reason why Kengo let him use/keep Fourze Driver at all.

Meteor - Apparently he's supposed to be emulating Bruce Lee, which I find hilarious and annoying since it's so far off or trying too hard.

He's a martial artist, yeah.

Nadeshiko - alien-space thingy?

She's literally space energy.

Ghost - Dead plus Supernatural powers. I dropped Ghost though, so I can't say much about all of it, although like Fourze, I did watch snippets of it to just get the context of each character.

There is one thing I noticed about Ghost early on. It's how Takeru initislly can't really fight against Specter well and gets his ass kicked, but then gradually adjusts and finds a form to counter him effectivly, changing into it as soon as his fights with Specter begin. Even if that wasn't that intentinal and was made for time-saving, I still liked that Ryuki-esque approach of MC actually learning from experience.

OOO probably gives the least context and the weakest (by which I mean non-existent) justification for MC suddenly learning how to fight, but that's OOO to you. Oh right, now we have Zi-O as well. At least with Ex-Aid show points how that Emu had remains of a fighting-loving Bugster inside of him, that probably helps.

Honestly I do think that suits' power matter, but yeah, it's usually a good idea to make some sort of an idea of how and why hero can fight.

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

The thing about Gai is though, I know plenty of these rich kids from the kind of school I went to. His build as an actor doesn't feel like it screams "fight club" enough to be believable. And even if he was, I knew kids who made a fight club in our school too, well I participated in it, and trust me, half those people don't really know how to fight either. Having money at that young of an age doesn't really mean they can utilize it well enough either. Plus, he's more of a gamer to begin with. I'll give you the Raia point though.

I don't know, I just don't see Gentaro as much of an adroit as I do with Takumi.

I can give Ghost that credit, but I also see the Eiyuu Damashi as kinda useless and pointless in the sense that they kinda don't really fit nicely together as part of Takeru's growth, and that they don't seem to be an idea that works in the overall narrative of things against the Gammas outside of "Heroes vs Villains!"

I can give the suit giving people powers, but definitely not magically giving them knowledge of martial arts and distinct fighting styles.

 

[Hangyakuno]

Well martial art need mind and body strong enough to perform their usefulness. If you watch movement from Aikido or Judo repeatedly, I'm sure you can remember its move quickly but i'm not sure you can do it for real without train muscle or precision you need to apply to your opponent.

That is why I presume Rider power give Kamen Rider, muscle they need, sense they need, to move like they can't before. Godai was only brute fight against monster and when he transform, suddenly his move get smoother and refined, he even did a martial artist pose. Of course, because there is someone else in the suit. Eiji was surprised when Batta medal power give his leg power boost and start to do some aerial flurry kick. My point is, martial art is already in their own brain, they just didn't have power or mind to actually do or remember that before they get power. Something like protagonist in movie "Limitless" do. Sometime they need time to progressively accustomed with its power, sometime they just get it from first time.

You know Tsukuyomi was in Resistance Army, right? To become exactly an effective resistance, they must be have an opponent they can actually beat. Not just an Ohma which one side slaughtered them. Tsukoyomi must be used to be in middle of battle with this grunts. Just like I commented before, if gunfight at mid range still not enough for you, she actually did some brawl even though it was surprise attack (sliding kick/tackle?) or get overpowered by monster. We still haven't see how Kamen Rider Tsukoyomi fight, it can be another gunfight but if she did some martial art, which probably limited move anyway, there is nothing wrong because she maybe already have it in her after long terrible life experience with Resistance Army. Just like how peaceful man living in peaceful era Godai can dare to do beatiful aerial kick or blast trough human eater monster with Bike after get much power.
It is still not make sense, eh? Well, it is fictional, actually if they can give some logic or cause behind it, then it is enough. I'm still struggling with the fact about how Jojima Yuki can be astronout, but Fourze at least give some pointer with link between her school and NASA, added with time gap to make her somehow have ability to be one.

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

Limitless is a bad movie to cite for that, in the sense that it's a myth that you only use 10% of your brain, and taking some kind of drug doesn't suddenly grant you access to instinctively mimic something you've seen before almost perfectly.

And also, again, I already said this before. The suit does not magically "give you the muscles", especially not in the cases of technology based Riders. With Kuuga, it makes sense. You realized the reason he was in pain after putting on the Amadam is because his body was rapidly burning since it was trying to make his body grow more muscles to be more fight to become Kuuga, right? I also already cited that Godai has over 2,000 skills, regardless of whether or not he lived in times of peace doesn't matter. He's been shown to train as well, and there's the whole seeing visions of previous Kuuga, and to an extent this applies to Agito, in that the origin of their power are beyond space and time in a sense, so being spiritually transferred powers has more of an impact that simply using a technological system. I can refer you to the concept of reincarnation in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism, where people recall previous lives they've lived or somehow have skills they never learned anywhere before (probably from a previous life), which is something to be more of the case here. Something like the IXA system doesn't do that, it doesn't grant you muscles. It's technology vs Spiritual/metaphysical/magical powers. The Jiku Driver is a technology. It's not a magic muscle giving device.

The transformation device of early Heisei Riders have a PHYSICAL impact and change in their physiology as a whole, with Ryuki breaking that mold for a bit, but came back with Faiz (You need Orphenoch DNA or BE an Orphenoch) and Blade, constantly fusing with the Undeads will turn you into an Undead. Hibiki, their bodies need to be at a limit of human capabilities to become Onis.

I also already said just because Tsukuyomi was in the resistance, doesn't mean ****. I'm talking about what they FILMED and WRITTEN. Tackling and what not is still not fighting skills. Anyone can tackle. We have not seen Tsukuyomi do anything that can even levitate her into the level of knowing how to fight. Just because it is part of her synopsis and backstory sheet, doesn't mean they filmed it properly or SHOWED us enough of it to make it believable.

Limitless might be a good movie (to a certain extent), but it's entire premise is based on a falsehood. You need to become accustomed to fighting, it's not like the NZT drug is something that downloads skills into your brain like in The Matrix movies (and even there, when Neo "knows Kung Fu", he still doesn't have enough proper training with that his body inside the Matrix is accustomed to it enough).

 

[Japaneseseriesfan]

Also, do you seriously think someone in the resistance would dress like Tsukuyomi does and be able to fight? Like, at least with Marika whose actor is a real life martial artist, she makes sense to be able to find her balance in fighting with high heels on. Tsukuyomi on the other hand? Please. She's just another pretty face they casted and dressed poorly for the role, which is the same with all these pretty boys who don't look like Rider-material one bit.

 

[Hangyakuno]

You can't bash Limitless logic just because it not based on real life. We are not watching documentary here.
Alright, for something to be fictional, they must have their own logic, their own fiction not a fact. We, as viewer, can only insert a bit logic to their own logic just to understand what they didn't show to us.

Seriously you even use reference from Matrix which use their own imaginary fiction to create their fictional world. You can't inject knowledge to your brain using jack cable, you will die. Ask Keanu Reeves, he never actually get those knowledge, Nero did. Rather than using Marika actress real background as reason for her highheel ultra balancing, actually I prefer Marika character fictional background which have her nurtured to be a spy and even used to climb high building with minimal equipment.

Tsukuyomi , in world of TV series of Kamen Rider Zi-O, are a resistance, capable to fight, ranged and close fight, survive long war with Ohma Zi-O army attack then decide to follow Geiz to change the past. That is their imaginary fact which only valid in their imaginary world. I understand you want to critize their lack of tension to build her transformation into Kamen Rider because i feel it too. Honestly I don't understand your theory about good writing, but for me, as long as it gets me feel amazed while watching it, then it is all good. The only disappointment i have about Kamen Rider Tsukoyomi was because it happened so late and usually it get bad end. I'm still remember Kengo Fourze and Mage group which only become victim of final boss.