Your most hated Kamen rider character?

[KamenRiderAzrael]

I'm sure it's been said, but Narutaki. He's the most pointless character ever. What are his motives? Why does he hate Decade? Where is he from? All of these questions and more will be answered after...never.

 

[lazycoconut]

1. She's the only one that actually bothered. She's a strong woman who identified her territory early on and staked her claim on it.
2. It's an anime trope. In practically every shounen I've seen with romance that trope is there.
3. We have to assume that Rin actually does stuff for him (on-screen we've seen her make Souji the energy drink from hell and remind him of his schedule). It's not like she actually got anything back for most of their time together.

I mean, this is what most of Kyoryuger is, really: Sanjo fitting as much tropes as he can as possible to either put his twist on them or poke fun of them. I think he tried to do the same thing to W, except Rider doesn't allow itself as much freedom as Sentai does in this regard, and that's why I think he did a better job in Kyoryuger.

1. He isn't "her territory." She doesn't have a right to him just because she wants him. No one is ever entitled to someone else and we shouldn't be teaching kids that if someone isn't interested in you, they obviously just don't realise their feelings for you yet; so keep trying until.you get the guy or girl!

2. It's still awful. It is not funny. It is especially jarring here in contrast to W where the character with a violent wife ended up murdered for his belief she loved him really. While I understand your point about "tropes" and anime, and accept that this kind of problem is by no means limited to children's shows or even to Japan - I feel it's wrong. In context of having a show to write I understand it, in moral terms it's wrong (always, anywhere.) But it is so pervasive in almost every society and every form of media that one show can't be expected to solve the problem. For that reason though, it's always better when something rejects this "trope" and exposes it for what it is, rather than just rolling with it

3. Show don't tell etc.

 

[kuroihikari]

1. He isn't "her territory." She doesn't have a right to him just because she wants him. No one is ever entitled to someone else and we shouldn't be teaching kids that if someone isn't interested in you, they obviously just don't realise their feelings for you yet; so keep trying until.you get the guy or girl!

2. It's still awful. It is not funny. It is especially jarring here in contrast to W where the character with a violent wife ended up murdered for his belief she loved him really. While I understand your point about "tropes" and anime, and accept that this kind of problem is by no means limited to children's shows or even to Japan - I feel it's wrong. In context of having a show to write I understand it, in moral terms it's wrong (always, anywhere.) But it is so pervasive in almost every society and every form of media that one show can't be expected to solve the problem. For that reason though, it's always better when something rejects this "trope" and exposes it for what it is, rather than just rolling with it

3. Show don't tell etc.

1. It's still a valid method of taking your mate. For all we know, and it's highly likely, that Souji could've left any time if he really wanted to.
2. Probably, but when you're at that age, it is kinda cute. I'm a strong man and I let this cute lady slap me around (with something that really doesn't hurt) making it seem that she's in control when I am. She's a cute lady who's afforded a little sense of control and decides to take advantage of it, softening the blows to show that she's more playful than angry. It's a fragile unspoken contract that isn't morally wrong, because people who live in the kind of society that foster it know how to maintain it.
3. It was shown.

 

[lazycoconut]

1. It's still a valid method of taking your mate. For all we know, and it's highly likely, that Souji could've left any time if he really wanted to.
2. Probably, but when you're at that age, it is kinda cute. I'm a strong man and I let this cute lady slap me around (with something that really doesn't hurt) making it seem that she's in control when I am. She's a cute lady who's afforded a little sense of control and decides to take advantage of it, softening the blows to show that she's more playful than angry. It's a fragile unspoken contract that isn't morally wrong, because people who live in the kind of society that foster it know how to maintain it.
3. It was shown.

1. So basically following someone around until you wear them down? We will have to disagree on that

2. And that

3. We are never shown any development of Souji and Rin's relationship. In the show, he likes her as a friend but has no romantic interest in her and doesn't seem aware of her feelings. In the 100 Years Later movie they were apparently happily married for many years, and are already dating in the present day. There's no in between from "likes her as a friend but doesn't see her as more" to "true love." It can be guessed at, but isn't seen, and because of that there is no reason for me to care about the relationship or even Rin herself (whose only purpose in the story is to be Souji's love interest - something that always creates a poor character.)

My point in relation to this thread is that I think Sanjo writes romance very poorly and is too fond of inserting it into a story for no good reason. And yet, forced and poorly developed though Terui and Akiko's romance was, it is still a better example to kids than the majority of canon romances in the franchise. That is horrid. The bar shouldn't be that low and yet it is.

 

[Shogun_Master]

Probably a pretty popular one, but spider/ puppet guy from Kiva.

 

[kuroihikari]

1. So basically following someone around until you wear them down? We will have to disagree on that

2. And that

3. We are never shown any development of Souji and Rin's relationship. In the show, he likes her as a friend but has no romantic interest in her and doesn't seem aware of her feelings. In the 100 Years Later movie they were apparently happily married for many years, and are already dating in the present day. There's no in between from "likes her as a friend but doesn't see her as more" to "true love." It can be guessed at, but isn't seen, and because of that there is no reason for me to care about the relationship or even Rin herself (whose only purpose in the story is to be Souji's love interest - something that always creates a poor character.

1. Yep. It's actually how courtship/wooing works and is/has been the norm for centuries. Over here, dating without going through that is quite abnormal. The only difference is that it's the woman doing it.

2. Clearly there's a cultural difference at work, and I don't see how there's anything wrong with it.

3. "There's no in between from "likes her as a friend but doesn't see her as more" to "true love." It can be guessed at, but isn't seen", and isn't that the point of fiction, to, at some point, let your imagination do the work? A character whose only role is love interest is poor by default, but is not necessarily detrimental, as it always adds depth to the character who it is the love interest to. What matters is how that added depth is explored.

 

[lazycoconut]

1. Yep. It's actually how courtship/wooing works and is/has been the norm for centuries. Over here, dating without going through that is quite abnormal. The only difference is that it's the woman doing it.

2. Clearly there's a cultural difference at work, and I don't see how there's anything wrong with it.

3. "There's no in between from "likes her as a friend but doesn't see her as more" to "true love." It can be guessed at, but isn't seen", and isn't that the point of fiction, to, at some point, let your imagination do the work? A character whose only role is love interest is poor by default, but is not necessarily detrimental, as it always adds depth to the character who it is the love interest to. What matters is how that added depth is explored.

1. It's not. Healthy relationships are mutual and they certainly shouldn't be about one partner deciding they are entitled to the other and pursuing them until that person gives in. That is wrong. It completely disrespects and disregards the wishes of the person being "courted"

2. It's not specific to any culture?

3. Well, that's just it. I think it is bad writing to use any character solely to further another's development or story. Souji's best episodes were those exploring his relationships with different teammates and his family, the Rin thing did not do much for his character at all

 

[Lockon]

1. It's not. Healthy relationships are mutual and they certainly shouldn't be about one partner deciding they are entitled to the other and pursuing them until that person gives in. That is wrong. It completely disrespects and disregards the wishes of the person being "courted"

2. It's not specific to any culture?

I think you misunderstand, this fashion is mutual, or is supposed to be. It's a lot more complicated than a suitor deciding that their "entitled" to someone and badgering them until they relent. The dance is much more subtle than that.

And, yes, that's how many cultures do it, although... I thought it was mostly Germanic based ones, Britain, Germany, Parts of the US. Japanese courtship... I couldn't tell you who's the lead in that dance.

 

[lazycoconut]

I think you misunderstand, this fashion is mutual, or is supposed to be. It's a lot more complicated than a suitor deciding that their "entitled" to someone and badgering them until they relent. The dance is much more subtle than that.

And, yes, that's how many cultures do it, although... I thought it was mostly Germanic based ones, Britain, Germany, Parts of the US. Japanese courtship... I couldn't tell you who's the lead in that dance.

It is not mutual in this case. Souji never demonstrated any romantic interest in Rin during the show. The audience was supposed to assume he would eventually fall for her just because she wanted him. Had he clearly liked her but wanted her to chase him a little, it would be different (although imo still not appropriate for children as young as Sentai's audience.)

Terui and Akiko's relationship, which is what I'm talking about in reference to this thread, is different. There were some prior indications of Akiko having a thing for him, but nothing on his side until the A to Z movie where he asks her on a date. That is out of nowhere but it's not the way some people have portrayed it when talking about Akiko - she did not pursue him until he gave in. She didn't pursue him at all!

 

[kuroihikari]

It is not mutual in this case. Souji never demonstrated any romantic interest in Rin during the show. The audience was supposed to assume he would eventually fall for her just because she wanted him. Had he clearly liked her but wanted her to chase him a little, it would be different (although imo still not appropriate for children as young as Sentai's audience.)

Terui and Akiko's relationship, which is what I'm talking about in reference to this thread, is different. There were some prior indications of Akiko having a thing for him, but nothing on his side until the A to Z movie where he asks her on a date. That is out of nowhere but it's not the way some people have portrayed it when talking about Akiko - she did not pursue him until he gave in. She didn't pursue him at all!

It doesn't matter whether or not the "courted" had any interest in the start. And there is no measurement of entitlement going on. It is to some extent unfair to the courted (over here, it's the female) but the option to reject anyone and/or everyone (or the entire courtship custom altogether) is always there.

Over here, there's a term for people who got courted into submission, and most people think it's sweet. I don't think you have the right to call out any relationship that started out as such as "unhealthy".