Wizard Opinions Thus Far?

Fourze isn't for everyone, but it's enjoyable if you're willing to throw logic completely out of the window

It really isn't. Like, everything that Lynxara mentioned about Fourze? Completely valid, but her explanation of the show is so.much.more.interesting. than the way it actually plays out. I think this has a lot to do with the directing and acting more than anything else, but I also felt like the show failed at making its villains particularly interesting. The show really missed the opportunity to run with the idea of a hero's actions ultimately being beneficial to the baddies. The difference between Fourze and Wizard, I think, is that Fourze wasn't about this incredibly well constructed story being on the forefront at all times, it focused a lot of its attention on its characters and it's always struck me that liking the series depends a lot on whether or not you like the characters and the actors. Wizard is...something trying to be more than the sum of its parts. It's vaguely hinting at an interesting story, but rather than being original, it's sort of just taking notes from other shows on what appears to be cool and mysterious and hoping it's enough to satiate the viewers.
 
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The show really missed the opportunity to run with the idea of a hero's actions ultimately being beneficial to the baddies.

Yeah, Fourze's premise was pretty dark (Founding a high school for psychological experimentation on kids, the heroes doing the baddies' job for them, etc.). I don't know if it would have been served better if it played to that instead of converting it into a cheerful, fun atmosphere.

I guess it would have worked better if the cheerful atmosphere served to highlight the dark side, but the show just didn't do that.

It's not like most Rider series don't have this dark reality behind it, but I guess the events of March 2011 may have limited the show's storytelling.
 
Wizard, like Fourze, is to me an excitingly amazing series and I love it to bits. Infinity Style's introduction could've been handled a bit more fluidly I suppose, but, then, I have a bias towards straight-to-ultimate-form transformations, so, eh. :V
 
Depends on what type of story you think it's telling. I'm at a disadvantage in that I didn't actually finish Fourze (got to about the same place we're at with Wizard now) so I can't concretely say where they went at the end, but from the opening episodes and the ones I saw afterwards, I'm thinking it was a story about friendship.

Friendship is certainly one of the themes of the show, but it's not the only one. I think instead the show views friendship as, essentially, the way to resolve the various conflicts it's exploring. The central conflict of the story is the generational divide, and how teenagers find themselves in a strange place where they're supposed to be on the cusp of adulthood, but still find themselves at the mercy of adult whims, which can be very selfish.

To an extent, all of the narrative hinges on the difference in worldview between Gentaro, who places friendship above all things, and Gamou, who was willing to murder his best friend in order to achieve his life's ambition. Friendship in Fourze is an absolute good, though it does not always solve problems successfully. That said, someone who respects the idea of friendship generally comes out ahead of someone who doesn't.

A significant problem with Fourze is that even though the story is really about the clash between Gentaro and Gamou's worldviews, all of the direct confrontations between those two characters are hopelessly rear-loaded. We don't even have a clear idea of what makes Gamou tick until the last four episodes. While Fourze is probably the best possible version of the story it wanted to tell, the pacing of that story is very easy to call into question.

Really? What about Fourze's story concept necessitated things like drills on legs. Or, worse--using said drill for anything other than a finisher?

The Fourze suit was explicitly made for the purpose of letting humans (specifically Kengo) travel through space to meet the Presenters. Rokuro's intention was clearly that it be mass-produced at some distant point in the future, probably long after his death. It was created for exploration purposes, so in theory a lot of its goofier modules play into that idea. The drill was probably intended to help crack apart asteroids and other forms of space debris that might prove dangerous during the voyage to the Presenters. It could perhaps give the descendants of the original Fourze suit some potential as mining technology.

(That said, the actual actual reason is clearly that Kazuki Nakahsima loves the hell out of drills, which aren't just the main weapon of choice in Gurren-Lagann but a central metaphor in the series. I wonder if the original impetus of this idea was 1997's Megaranger, which has a very similar tone and premise to Fourze (though a very different story). In Megaranger, the Red's weapon is a drill saber. Parts of both Fourze and Gurren-Lagann give the impression that Megaranger made a huge impression on Nakashima at some point. Certainly, some of Fourze's modules are extremely similar to pieces of Megaranger gear.)

It may be bad, but it at least tries new things, like with White Wizard, Mayu, etc. Do we all like these? Evidently not.

I think it's more that the show hasn't done anything with these elements yet, so it's hard for a hostile or neutral audience to form any particular opinion of them. We don't know, strictly speaking, if we'll ever see Mayu again at all, let alone if her fate will be anything that's memorable. The show hasn't really said anything about White Wizard other than that he exists, and we don't know what his motivations are. To an extent, we don't know what Mayu or White Wizard's overall role in the story will be yet. In that situation, it's hard to count the characters as net positives, because there's just not a lot of substance to either yet.

The show really missed the opportunity to run with the idea of a hero's actions ultimately being beneficial to the baddies.

I imagine this stems from another fundamental problem of Fourze, which is that it was perhaps overly-similar to Kamen Rider W in many respects. In W, it is also a major plot point that W's actions ultimately serve Ryubei's interests, by unlocking the Xtreme powers. There is a major scene where Ryubei really plays this up, and in that show, it's a big shocker that helps explain why Ryubei never fussed about stopping W the way that subordinates like Saeko and Kirihiko did.

They clearly didn't want to duplicate that scene in Fourze, so there's never a point where anyone points out that Fourze's battles are ultimately to Gamou's benefit. The lesser Horoscopes (sans Virgo) clearly think of Fourze as an actual threat, and treat him as such. By the end of the show, though, it's clear that the only Horoscopes who really understood what Gamou intended from the start were Leo, Virgo, and Libra, so the other Horoscopes were basically just being idiots.

That said, we see the lesser Horoscopes way earlier in the series, and there's never a scene early on that explicitly points out that their attitude toward Fourze might be completely unrelated to Gamou's. In short, it's easy to form the wrong impression of the Zodiarts, and you'll never have a chance to realize it's wrong unless you finish the series. Which, almost by definition, most people won't. This goes back to the problem of too much of Fourze's narrative being rear-loaded.
 
That said, we see the lesser Horoscopes way earlier in the series, and there's never a scene early on that explicitly points out that their attitude toward Fourze might be completely unrelated to Gamou's.

Actually, there is a scene before even episode 10, IIRC, where Scorpion questions Gamou about Fourze, but Gamou explains that Fourze might be useful for the evolution of the Zodiarts thanks to their conflict. Unlike W, where the hero's efforts being useful for the villain was a twist late into the story, in Fourze it was an idea presented fairly early and was part of the basic set up of the show, although it wasn't something that was constantly repeated to the viewers afterwards.
 
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Actually, there is a scene before even episode 10, IIRC, where Scorpion questions Gamou about Fourze, but Gamou explains that Fourze might be useful for the evolution of the Zodiarts thanks to their conflict. Unlike W, where the hero's efforts being useful for the villain was a twist late into the story, in Fourze it was an idea presented fairly early and was part of the basic set up of the show, although it wasn't something that was constantly repeated to the viewers afterwards.

My problem with that is: Did Fourze really help Gamou's plans along?

The only Zodiart that evolved on his own during the series were Cancer and Aries, and while the former focused on Meteor, the latter never met Fourze before evolving. After that, all the rest Horoscopes came to existence because of what the bad guys themselves did in Kyoto. So at the end of the day, Fourze didn't really do anything for Gamou's plan until the very last episode when he stopped it.
 
As pointed out in Meteor's debut and in the Pegasus arc, Horoscopes were born from Zodiarts which surpassed the Last One form.

Said surpassing was only shown after a Last One form was hit with a Limit Break.
 
As pointed out in Meteor's debut and in the Pegasus arc, Horoscopes were born from Zodiarts which surpassed the Last One form.

Said surpassing was only shown after a Last One form was hit with a Limit Break.

Yet the only one that evolved to Horoscope like that was Cancer. None of the others did.

You can have as many Zodiarts got to Last One, but what Gamou needed was the 12 Horoscope Switches. Fourze was only involve in one of them (which required Meteor's and Virgo's involvement).
 
My problem with that is: Did Fourze really help Gamou's plans along?

The only Zodiart that evolved on his own during the series were Cancer and Aries, and while the former focused on Meteor, the latter never met Fourze before evolving.

Cancer focused on Meteor after becoming an horoscope. It was while fighting against Fourze that he evolved.

After that, all the rest Horoscopes came to existence because of what the bad guys themselves did in Kyoto. So at the end of the day, Fourze didn't really do anything for Gamou's plan until the very last episode when he stopped it.

The Kyoto plan also involved Fourze though. They had to use his own attacks to break one of the seals that made the targets that they could destroy by themselves appear.

Then, there's also how two of the later Horoscopes were people who were influenced by Gentaro (Gemini and Pisces). And both of those cases showed that even with the Kyoto hole destroyed and Libra's improved power, the Horoscopes still had to be in the right state of mind in order to awaken their Switches.
 

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