Kyoryugers - Braves or Heroes

[LaZerwolfX]

And I don't see why "It's from Japan, they don't know any better" is an excuse for us spread the ignorance when we DO know better. Fansubbers might not be part of a company that gets to officially profit off their work, but they are translating a foreign show for the sake of English speaking people; people who WILL see your translation choices and WILL complain about it if they take any kind of offense to that, and they WILL discourage other people from supporting you because your group is racially insensitive.

If I were part of a fansub group, I'd rather they complain that we didn't leave in honorifics or something trivial like that. This is clearly not trivial.

You have COMPLETELY missed my point. I never once said that they don't know any better. And quite frankly it doesn't matter if they do or not. My argument is that when the word brave is being used completely out of any context that would connect it to native american culture and is in no way making any sort or racist statement. Why would anyone decide to view that as racist?

Just using the word brave can't immediately be offensive; it's not a racial slur. this is such a petty and minute detail, why does anyone even give a ****? just watch the subs you want and don't worry about it. it just seems like everyone's looking to make an issue out of what in the big picture is a VERY little deal.

It all just seems like a whole lot of white-knighting to me.

 

[Clocktower]

So not only are they making examples of other people, but their name doesn't even fully convey what they actually do. And there are less inflammatory and abrasive ways to educate people.

But that wouldn't be as funny. The blog is named after TVN because their subs are the most widely distributed in the fandom and they're absolutely frikken awful. I really don't think that can be stressed enough.

You have COMPLETELY missed my point. I never once said that they don't know any better. And quite frankly it doesn't matter if they do or not. My argument is that when the word brave is being used completely out of any context that would connect it to native american culture and is in no way making any sort or racist statement. Why would anyone decide to view that as racist?

Just using the word brave can't immediately be offensive; it's not a racial slur. this is such a petty and minute detail, why does anyone even give a ****? just watch the subs you want and don't worry about it. it just seems like everyone's looking to make an issue out of what in the big picture is a VERY little deal.

People use racial slurs without realising their meaning all the time, that doesn't mean it's okay. Ignoring that, it's still just a bad translation (take a look at Onore TVN's post again if you care why) and they're using a word that has no meaning in English except as a racist term, so why use it?

 

[Kamen Rider ShinkenRed]

^Well looking up the word 'Brave' on various dictionary websites basically all of them said aside from the noun referring to Native Americans it can simply refer to a brave or courageous individual or warrior. So no, the noun form does have more meaning in English than the racist term.
That said, I can see why some people have an issue with it but it;s not being used to refer to Native Americans here.

 

[Tom Constantine]

^Well looking up the word 'Brave' on various dictionary websites basically all of them said aside from the noun referring to Native Americans it can simply refer to a brave or courageous individual or warrior. So no, the noun form does have more meaning in English than the racist term.

The term itself is of racist origins, that's the whole point.

 

[Dessa]

The term itself is of racist origins, that's the whole point.

Considering that the word was around for almost 100 years BEFORE it was ever associated with Native Americans, you cannot say that the term has "racist origins."

Word Origin & History

brave
late 15c., from M.Fr., "splendid, valiant," from It. bravo "brave, bold," originally "wild, savage," possibly from M.L. bravus "cutthroat, villain," from L. pravus "crooked, depraved;" a less likely etymology being from L. barbarus (see barbarous). A Celtic origin (Ir.
breagh, Cornish bray) also has been suggested. The noun application to N. American Indian warriors is from c.1600. O.E. words for this, some with overtones of "rashness," included modig (now "moody"), beald ("bold"), cene ("keen"), dyrstig ("daring"). The verb "to face with bravery" is from 1776, from Fr. braver. Brave new world is from the title of Aldous Huxley's 1932 satirical utopian novel; he lifted the phrase from Shakespeare ("Tempest" v.i.183).

Furthermore, while I don't even watch the show, I support the use of the word "Braves" in translation, given that it's obviously, in terms of Japanese culture, a reference to Sanada Ten Braves, which has come up in many pop culture titles, other than legendary and historical accounts.

 

[kuroihikari]

"Braves" in Sanada Ten Braves is "yuushi 勇士" (Sanada to juuyuushi), not "yuusha 勇者". If it's trying to reference that, they're referencing the wrong thing.

Also, your etymology only includes one noun application, and it does refer to Native Americans. On the other hand, I think I've read renaissance literature that uses "The brave" as a noun not as a reference to Native Americans (which can be seen in modern times in usage such as "The Brave and The Bold"). However, the subtitles don't use that application. They use "braves".

 

[Eldar]

Also, your etymology only includes one noun application, and it does refer to Native Americans. On the other hand, I think I've read renaissance literature that uses "The brave" as a noun not as a reference to Native Americans (which can be seen in modern times in usage such as "The Brave and The Bold"). However, the subtitles don't use that application. They use "braves".

Pre-19th century, the noun brave(s) has a very negative connotation and a brave is usually someone of low character or a criminal, they would be synonymous with bully or outlaw. It's only in the 19th century that you find braves used to refer to Native Americans, but of course it's not exclusively a term for Native Americans. Chinese military irregulars are also commonly referred to as Braves in British military reports of the Far East by the Mid 19th century. The same for African warrior tribesman. So it's definitely not exclusively used only for Native Americans, in general it seems to be a catchall term for irregulars of a non-traditional military or militia force. It's also why unsurprisingly you find the term being used more often after the 1810s.

It's also why the Braves of Sanada are a legitimate descripton. Ninjas are by definition irregulars.